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What are you basing your Real would beat Man Utd and Arsenal theory on???
Who have they beaten this season to deserve such a convincing, without batting an eyelid, statement on??
Every good team, Alcoron aside, they have come up against this season, they have been found wanting.
Never been my argument...ur picking a select few....
I mean the general standard, Villa would beat Deportivo and I think the likes of Spurs, Man City etc etc would beat the likes of Real Mallorca etc etc comfortably.
Never been about just Real Madrid, Barcelona and Sevilla for me - and their performances - just always been on depth, which I guess as you say can't be proved..
Apart from UEFA rankings or woteva but I don't know that.
It is getting stronger - you can see that by how tight the league is Jamie - it clearly is!
Whereas Barca and Real are storming norming away with it yet again.
Out of interest wot would ur La Liga XI be and then your Prem one....
2009-12-10 - Added by JamDav1982 Meant more Spanish teams than English for the bet!
2009-12-10 - Added by JamDav1982 Barca are obviously the best and I would have Real as favourites against Man Utd and Arsenal, possibly not Chelsea.
I disagree with the standard of the rest of the league, and the only way on knowing who is the best outside the top sides is to look at how teams have performed in the Uefa cup where Spanish teams have been superior to English.
For instance compare the 5th place team in England and Spain - Everton and Valencia. The difference in class there is laughable. Take the 6th placed teams and I would have Deportivo to beat Aston Villa every time.
I think Spanish football has more strength and depth and the arrogance of EPL fans is based on the money spent must mean they are better it doesnt. I wouldnt look at Uefa ranking for lower teams as very few have played in Uefa competitions so those seedings are meaningless.
I completely disagree that the EPL is getting stronger infact I think its getting worse and think Spanish teams will continue to dominate.
I will bet you a £100 that more English teams get to semis this year, of the CL, than English and will have this bet with you every season after. Up for it?
The bare fact is that Spanish football has the better players and has won more trophies than the EPL in the last few years. The only two criteria that can be accurately judged.
UEFA Rankings - good to know...
Nah forget about teams finishing where etc in Champions League - I have always, and please acknowledge this, argued that EPL has better depth...
ie if you put all the teams into a season format - 40 teams (ridiculous i know), i bet you English teams would do better.
I mean apart from Barca the other teams would struggle against Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and even Liverpool.
You just have to look at results between sides recently ie Liverpool spanking Real, Arsenal brushing Sevilla aside etc etc.
Has always been on depth for me - thats where my argument stems. Little Xerez - statistically the second worst team in Europe behind Grenoble.
Just think the way Prem football has developed in terms of being fast and fierce with a bit more tactical nous it would come out on top.
In addition - a point I would like to raise - Man Utd in UEFA Champions League have lost 2 games from 32 Champions League games - hold the record for going 25 games unbeaten and just broke Ajax's record with 15 games unbeaten.
Throw in Chelsea - beaten on pens by Liverpool and Man Utd final and then away goals by Barca - the quality is certainly there.
Last season apart Spanish teams in general have struggled recently to beat English teams - FACT - English teams it would seem have to knock out each other!
Sevilla hammering Middesbrough 3-0 in UEFA Cup final is a point that backs up ur theory.
But i stick by it - that EPL has more strength in depth than La Liga.
And the standard is improving.
2009-12-10 - Added by JamDav1982 Just checked - English teams ahead Spaniards in Uefa Rankings. Although i'm sure I read somewhere that Spain is all but guaranteed to be top at the end of this season. although i might have just made that up aswell.
2009-12-10 - Added by JamDav1982 I never argued with you that Ronaldo didnt deserve the award in 2008 the year, he obviously did and I always acknowledged that,
My point was that I still felt Messi to be the better of the two regardless, and you and Iain felt Ronaldo to be the better player.
2009-12-10 - Added by JamDav1982 Arsenal could have got £25 million for Ashley Cole but decided to swap him wit some money instead therefore IT IS MONEY OUT OF THEIR COFFERS.
I knew you would bring up the CL fina (which he has scored in two)l, which wasnt a tight game as barca won at a canter. But watching Barca there have been far more big games where they have needed a flash of inspiration to win and Etoo hasnt provided it. I'm tired of this arguement and have said all in want on it.
La Liga Vs EPL
Why is La Liga better than EPL. A few facts -
Spanish teams have won 5 european trophies in the last 5 years, English teams 2 (Panners response to this will be to scoff at the Uefa Cup)
La Liga had the 6 of the top 7 players in the recent Ballon dor vote (the other player in top 7 was in La Liga last year) and are likely to repeat this in the World Player of the Year votes.
Spanish League is number 1 rated by Uefa.
The Spanish league bosts the large majority of the best international team in the world.
A Spanish league select would anihalate an EPL team - FACT.
Only arrogant EPl fans claim it to be the best, but face the facts its not.
The only claim the EPL teams have is that they go far in the CL, but im afraid its about winning trophies.
Panner show me the facts that the EPL is the best other than the fact that they have gone far in CL.
Lacking in the big games??? UEFA Champions League final??? Also, isn't Ibrahimovic the one who struggles in the big games???
So i take it you have changed to accomodate Ibrahimovic or Drogba??
EPL is better than the Spanish leage tho...and Messi has been the best player this year as Ronaldo was ahead of him the year before.
Both about the same in terms of quality - like Nadal and Federer of the football world - polar opposites but both class.
U not seeing the point with Gallas tho Jamie....no money was spent!!!! U said why didnt Arsenal spend 15-20 million on Eto'o - they did it with Arshavin and Gallas.
But they didn't - they got Gallas in exchange for another player - dont u see that?? No money went out of their coffers -different from spending 12million on him!!!
Fergie has admitted himself that Fletcher is one of the first names on his team sheet! Badly missed against Barcelona and Liverpool thi season shows how important he has become for us....and in the big games he is always the one producing.
For me ahead of Van Der Sar and probs gets ahead of Giggs - just for waht he brings to the team.
nd saying that by having Fletcher as 3rd on my teamsheet constitutes that my point about Vidic and Ferdinand being the best is a shit point.
Your implying becoz Fletcher is ahead of them that that reflects badly on them - not at all!
They are the best - have been for the past two season - facts show that! Th efact Fletcher has become so important for Man Utd does not reflect against them in anyway!
So if Fletcher isnt in who is?? Ballack - no chance - hasnt done jack shit since he signed? Joe Cole? Who would be ahead of him?
U can't just say he wouldn't and then not say who....
2009-12-10 - Added by Thebear Also agree with the wheres Rollyz remark, she always has something to say but as soon as panner as lots to say she dissapears! Strange eh JamDav???
2009-12-10 - Added by Thebear I disagree that Fletcher being 3rd on the UTD team sheet ahead of the supposed best central defence in world football is a bad point (on their day of course) which incidentally I think is a bad point. So many players "on their day" can lay claim to be being the best in the world.
Fletcher for me has been fantastic the last 12months and clearly an integral part of the UTD team but still don't feel that fergie would put his importance to the side ahead of the likes of Van Der Sar (Benn Foster would struggle to get a regular game in at least half premiership teams), I still think gigg’s would be down ahead of him as UTD are sorely lacking outright creative top class midfield players at the moment.
But do agree that is a very important cog in the side. However, I will also argue that with regards to the point about best starting 11 from UTD Chelsea that Fletcher would not be in the starting 11 if everyone was fit.
2009-12-09 - Added by JamDav1982 I fully acknowledge that Etoo was part of the best attacking unit I have seen, although I would say last season he was the 5th most important attacking player in their team, who was often found lacking in the big tight games.
End of the day I'm sick of this arguement beacuse the only person who matters - Guardiola - agreed with me and got rid of him at first available opportunity.
Villa in my team because I rate him above Torres and at the time i picked it Drogba was well below par. If I was to change it now either Ibra or Drogba would be in it.
I think the signs were there in the summer that Man Utd didnt have money and even if they did I dont think they would have paid the fees previously mentioned.
Barcelona struggles against English teams?
Of course they dont find it easy as these teams have very good defenders and play 10 men behind the ball.
However, Barca put two English teams out of the CL last year, absolutley dominating the English chanpions in the final and only conceding 1 goal in the 3 games form a 25 yd screamer.
Of course they are not going to beat them every time, but Barca have won 2 CL in the last 4 years, defeating two English teams along the way both times.
The Gallas transfer is no different because I can absolutley guarantee that Wenger would have had a specific value on Gallas, he is far to meticulous to think £5m + Gallas sounds good. I think its absurd that you think differently.
By your arguement I could have said to you in January that Barca would prefer Etoo to Ronaldo and I would have beeen proved right beacuse Barca won the treble.
I would say the fact Etoo scored 30+ and Barca won the treble yet were even more desperate to get rid of him says it all.
You are also right that I am extremely smug when it comes to arguing about Barca!! but thats cause I had endless La Liga/Epl and Messi/Ronaldo arguements with you and Iain last year, and whats the point of arguing if you cant be smug at the end of it?
Also where's Rolly mug. Why is he nae adding his tuppence worth?
"I remember exactly what we were arguing about and I was saying that I would prefer a Drogba type player AT THEIR BEST, than I would a Torres type player in this formation."
So why is Villa in ur Dream Team????
Ur missing the point on the whole Man Utd thing completely Jamie!!!
Yes I thought we did have money to spend but as I have said in the my comments below lately - as in the last week - there has been more and more tlak that we dont - hence Ljajic deal collapsing etc!
That was the point i was making there so shut up with that shite!
Hahahaha so wot that I barely acknowledged it??? Wots ur point there?? They are the best team - no one would disagree!
Fuck me the way you go on you would think your the only one that watches Barcelona!
Fact is against English teams they have struggled of late, apart from Man Utd final - and im thinking Chelsea Semi's and Man Utd semi's previously.
Very rare they fail to score in Spain - doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that there the best team iv seen in full flow. Most ppl would agree!
Also unreal how u downplay Eto'o when a para before u say Barca are the best attakcing side uve seen - well Eto'o was a major part of that.
U say he can't do the unexpected etc - there are plenty of goals where he has turned his marker - shown blinding pace etc to score.
As for the Ibrahimovic and Eto'o argument its a moot point!
Facts are Barca won a treble with him at their central striker and fact they then swapped him for Ibra in the summer - so we are both right to a degree.
Never said the argument tokk place in Fochabers - said it was Glasgow!!
And its different valuing Gallas in a 10-12m way - Arsenal didnt spend that money - they GAINED 5m plus him for Cole.
You point about why Arsenal didnt buy Eto'o was a bad one!
2009-12-09 - Added by JamDav1982 I wasnt even home last summer, only came back for two nights at Speyfest. So doint knoew when you think this arguement took place!!!
2009-12-09 - Added by JamDav1982 Jesus Panner stop talking absolute bollocks!! The arguement we had regarding Ibra Etoo was in Glasgow last new year. It was never ever mentioned before that. Stop making shit up to suit your arguement. I wll bet you £100 that if we ask Iain he will say it was in Glasgow last year in that bar on Ashton Lane.
I am well aware tha Gallas was part of the Cole deal, but do you not understand that his fee made up up part of the deal?Reportedly Arsenal previously turned down £25m for Cole from Chelsea, then accepted £5m + Gallas. You work it out.
By your thinking Ashley Cole was worth £5m, and gallas worth fuck all.
I never ever said you need a Drogba type to play 4-3-3, again you are telling lies. I remember exactly what we were arguing about and I was saying that I would prefer a Drogba type player AT THEIR BEST, than I would a Torres type player in this formation.
Last season I was saying early on that Barca were the best attacking side I had ever seen, why would I be saying this if I feel you NEED a Drogba type player.
Incidently you now quote Barca as best team you have seen, yet whenever I mentioned to you last year how good they were you would barely aknowledge it and instead point to how shit you though Spanish defences were.
As for Man Utd's big money signinigs you clearly stated that Man Utd should have went for - Benzema - 35m, Aguero 45m and Ribery 55m. When I pointed out the fact that Fergie needed to put Man Utd first and get value for players. You said - 'fuck that, we got £80m for Ronaldo'. You constantly change view points to suit your arguement.
I think barca would have sold Etoo for between £10-15m, not £25!! Also if these teams were interested in Etoo the would have tried to negotiate wages, which they never did.
Thats how important he has become for Manchester United tho, so shit point!
Vidic and Ferdinand at their best are huge for us, but as showed last season we can cope without one of them - 14 clean sheets was done with one or the other!
Doesn't mean there not the best pairing inthe world on their day tho!
2009-12-09 - Added by Thebear My question for you panner - all this raving about vidic and ferdinand and then you state that you would have fletcher as the third name on team sheet for UTD.
Gallas £10-12million - what are you having a laugh???? He was part of the Cole deal!!!!! Check up on it!
The point you made about Ibra and Eto'o was during the summer - last summer in fact - at a time when you said they would change and they didn't so forget about the January argument!
The point being u said they would change - they didnt then - have now and won a treble with Eto'o so i think my point was valid.
You did say that in order to play a 4-3-3 you need someone like Drogba - i argued differently and u and Iain were going mental about it!
Jesus Jamie its easy for me to say I want them to buy Aguero for £55m etc - jesus I would want them to splah out 600 on Messi, Kaka, Gerrard etc.
Yes but the thing with Arshavin and Gallas is that they arent on 160k a week!!! And Eto'o wot £25m???
Wenger spending that on him - NO CHANCE!!!
2009-12-08 - Added by JamDav1982 I was 100% correct that Barca would prefer Ibra to Etoo and they did it at the first available opportunity, throwing in an extra £40million to further prove my point. That is the fact that we were arguing about and my point of view and Guardiola's point of view didnt change regardless of the treble. They never waited "12 monthes but basically did it at the first available chance"
Do you honestly think I was saying this would happen in January?
If anything I think that Barca were more convinced by the end of the season that Ibra was a better option.
"Barca would prefer Eto'o to Ibrahimovic - at the time I said they wouldnt! And guess what I was proved righ"
Never in a million years was this ever going to happen in January and was never the basis of the arguement because Ibra would have been cip tied and out the CL while big clubs very rarely do transfers then anyway.
"Eto'o stayed - scored over 30 goals and THEN with Guardiola keen to diversify wanted Ibrahimovic"
Absolute bollocks Guardiola was never a big fan of Etoo and actively tried to get rid of him the summer before, while he would never throughout the season say he wanted Etoo to stay. Hinted at the opposite infact. Surely if you followed Spanih football you would know this.
Do you not understand the point that this transfer could never have happened in January?
Battering Ram arguement.
I never said you need a battering ram to play 4-3-3. My point was that Drogba on top form was better than Torres on top form in this formation. To the point that they can become almost unplayable for the opposition. I stand by that.
Pique
To be fair you never said that he will never be as good as them but to say he is not in their class is a strong statement that suggests you think he is nowhere near as good as them at their best.
Etoo
Man Utd and Arsenal would have signed Etoo if he was value, the fact that he wasnt backs up my arguement and not yours.
Arsenal reportedly spent around £12 - 15m million on Gallas who was older than Etoo is now. While they also spent big on Arshavin who was soon to turn 28.
Also how can you quote Man Utd's money issues when you were saying that they should have spent £35m Benzema, £45m Aguero and £55m for Ribery. Thank god your nae in charge at Old Trafford.
I know you never said Eto'o was a poor player but what you are doing is being all high and mighty about you saying last season that Barca would prefer Eto'o to Ibrahimovic - at the time I said they wouldnt! And guess what I was proved right!
Eto'o stayed - scored over 30 goals and THEN with Guardiola keen to diversify wanted Ibrahimovic!! How is my argument claiming their a world 11?? Just stating the facts! At the time you were like they will change - in Glasgow that night out with Iain and Kyle etc - when you alos claimed that in order to play a 4-3-3 you needed a "battering ram" ie Drogba.
Yet....wait....oh yeh you have Villa in your dream team - funny that.
Eto'o stayed last season so I was right they never change - 12 months later they do to DIVERSIFY (u said it urself) so u can't take credit now!!
I never ever said Pique will never be as good as Vidic or Ferdinand - never - show me where i did?!?! All I'm saying and its a personal opinion is that on their day I would have Ferdinand and Vidic ahead og him but the mere fact I have in my dream team is acknowledgement to the fact he is the one consistent cog in Barca's defence and has shown he is class!
Better than Vidic I don't think so - maybe one Vidic goes to Spain we will see -love to see Pique back in England too.
HAHAHAHA Teo'o point is a terrible one - why didn't Arsenal and Man Utd sign him???? EH??? Where do i start - £160,000 a week wage demands - 28?? Plus come on Jamie ur better than that - when does Wenger ever splash out and Man U might have money issues - shit point!
Never argued other player's wern't as bad as Messi just saying he hasnt done it for Argentina! Plus Ronaldo has a better goals to games ration than him there!!
2009-12-07 - Added by JamDav1982 A few points -
1. Never said that Etoo was a poor player, just that I would prefer Ibra ahead of Etoo and I said Barca would aswell - WHICH PROVED TO BE TRUE!!
2. By your arguement the Barca 11 that won the treble is a world 11 and no player could improve them. By your arguement Barca would be better with Etoo than - Ronaldo, Torres, Villa or any other because they won the treble last season with him. I dont think there is a manager in the world that would have Etoo over Ibra regardless of what Barca won last season.
3. I swear on my life that Fletcher arguement was at Pavs this year before the Arsenal game. I know that for a fact, and Iain might remember aswell. We can agree to disagree on this one.
4. The Pique arguement that he couldnt dislodge Ferdinand and Vidic therefore will never be as good is such a poor arguement its laughable! Its like saying Darren Anderton was chosen ahead of David Beckham for England when he (Beckham) was 22 therefor he will never be as good. The fact is Fergie made a massive mistake in letting Pique go so cheaply.
5. If you find the point about Etoo being a goalscorer, hardworker and little else laughable then it again proves you do not understand why they sold him. Any of the English sides who needed a striker (Man U, Arsenal,) could have got Etoo for £15 - 20 million, why do you think they didnt?
6. Where have I contradicted myself?
7. Messi has struggled to produce for Argentina so far, I didnt argue that because its a fact and I dont disagree with it. However I dont really think he has been any worse for Argentina than Ronaldo for Portugal or Torres for Spain.
Still no acknowledgent that Messi struggles to produce for Argentina??
You said previously on this that Ibrahimovic was the perfect man to replace Eto'o to give Barca an added dimension - so if they had brought in him in last season who knows what they would have won?!?
U were talking how they were so successful last season with Eto'o - Ibrah was a nice change so if they had brought him in last - how would they develop again?
U said last season they should have brought him in - yet won an unprecedented treble with Eto'o with the front three scoring over 100 goals.
So was I right to say they should keep him - YES i think i was!
The Fletcher point was no way in hell made at Pav's poker night - simply because by then Scholes had already played shite against Inter and Hargreaves was out so I was definitely calling for him to start -that came after he was ledge against Chelsea as well - so no way!
U can go on all day about how I didn't rate Fletcher back in the day - who did?!!? - Fergie apart! He has been class for 12 months now and after Rooney and Evra would be the first name on my teamsheet.
Also in July u were arguing Pique's case - thats fair enough - not in Vidic and Ferdinand's class tho on their day - if he was Fergie would have kept him FACT!
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA Eto'o is "a goalscorer and hard worker, and will provided little else" - what a terrible point!!!!!
EXACTLY - got over 30 goals being like that. Ibra has the touch etc and can bring ppl into play but he ISNT hardworking so there are factets to both.
Will Barca be as successful with Ibra - time will only tell!
2009-12-04 - Added by JamDav1982 Only winding you up Pan. I'm sure you've won a few aswel.
Etoo - the arguement at the time was wether Barca would rather have Ibra for Etoo on abillity and what he would bring to the team. There was no mention in the arguement as to when this would be. in January. You said they wouldnt and shouldnt take Ibra over Etoo, I said they should and would.
Fletcher - We had an arguement at Pavs house (poker night) this year before CL semi final and I swear on my life you said that Man U should not start Darren Fletcher in centre mid. Me and Iain were arguing that they would and he was arguably Man U's biggest player in theses games
Pique - I argued in July that Pique now had more to his game than Ferdinand and Vidic as I did not think either of those two were that strong in the second half of last season, while Pique was looking world class. Nothing to do with previous years.
Laudrup - I partly changed my dream team to try and get a reaction from folk on here. Didnt see enough of him and would still have Zidane ahead of him if pushed.
Ronaldo - Never claimed Ronaldo has no teamwork or creativty, only that he lacks this to yet be considered along the greats who did have this. As for saying he has two men man marking him, fair point but so does Messi. As for shooting and scoring instead of assisiting. In the last 3 seasons he has taken aroun 3x more attempts on goal than Messi and only scored a few more.
Dont worry Panner, im sure youve won plenty
World Cup arguement - If im right this is the arguement that we had in Iains flat? You and Kyle were claiming that Pele could not be judged against todays players as he played for Santos in a lot of friendlies and Army games. My point was that he had done it on the highest stage - dominated 2 World Cups. Ath that time the WC was easily the highest quality competition, which for a variety of reasons it is not these days.
'Etoo scoring more than Ibra £100'. That bet proves exactly that you do not grasp why Barca wanted Ibra over Etoo.
Etoo is a goalscorer and hard worker, and will provided little else. Barca want a team full of players with more strings to their bow who can get involved in link up play, create and do something unexpected.
I will easily take a £100 bet that Ibra will create and score more for Barca this season and Inter last season, than Etoo will for Barca last year and Inter this year.
Must be pissing you off if your bringing out previous arguments...always easy to do that I guess!
I meant Pique - defensive cog.
Is mental how u got so hot up one agrument with me and Kyle for hours about the importance of World Cup - and now downplaying it.
Messi - season and a half...same with Ronaldo - a player you claim is just goals and no teamwork or creativity?!?!
No chance!!!
I said last season Barcelona wouldnt swap Eto'o for Ibrahimovic....and guess what they didn't.....not until this summer!
Eto'o proved his class last season and I bet you a £100 quid Ibra won't score as many goals as he did in his Barca career!!!
Secondly, you mean May 2008???? Coz Arsenal game was 11 months after that and things change - back then no mate he wouldn't have got in my team as was proved in 2008 Champiosn League final!!! Alot can change over that piece and now he is our star midfielder.
So don't give me that shite - fact Fletcher was not good for us when he first emerged - smaller teams he struggled to stamp his authority - over past 12 months he has improved no end. Everyone knows that!!!
Haha Pique point again is a bad one! Yes last eason - when Vidic and Ferdinand are at their best he wouldnt get a sniff - hence we sold him. But rite now he has to be in the side simply coz he is the one consistent cog in the best team that I have seen in my lifetime.
Still think in the long run Evans will be a true defensive great - Pique is in coz Rio unfortunately is looking his age!
All points that can be backed up by time man - but the point is Eto'o was at Barca then for a reason, Fletcher was poor in his younger years and Vidic and Ferdinand - last 2 seasons were untouchable - just as Terry and Carvalho were
I mean Zidane was in ur dream team - u read about Laudrup on WIKIPEDIA, watched a couple of youtube videos and decidced to stick him in instead - proves things change.
So jog on with that shite!!
Also the point is Zidane did do those things - jesus easy to say he didnt do this, they didnt do that. Point is Messi is perfoming for Barcelona - the best team ever.
Not doing it for Argentine - Zidane - club and country!!!
2009-12-04 - Added by JamDav1982 There is absolutely no doubt that the majority would agree with you and disagree with me….I wouldn’t want it any other way!!!
My only point is that Zidane in his single best season never reached the heights that Ronaldo or Messi have in the last couple of years and that’s what I am basing my statement on.
Will they go on to have as recognised careers? I think they will, regardless of if they win a world cup or not. There is zero chance that Zidane would have won a WC with the current Portugal and Argentina teams, and a very good chance that Messi or Ronaldo could have won with the French team of 1998. That France team had world class players in nearly every position especially centre forward!!
Fair play to Zidane he scored twice in the 1998 final, but I still maintain he did not dominate that tournament in the way others have in the past. I would argue he was a better player at the 2006 WC.
Another point is that the CL has more quality in it these days than the World Cup does, to win the WC a team may only have 2 games against strong opposition. Although I still agree it is the biggest stage and reaches people who wouldn’t normally have much interest in football. But from a personal opinion I don’t need this to validate who I think are the best players I have seen play the game.
Overall I think Zidane is the most gracefull and elegant player I have ever seen, but in terms of influencing a team or having an impact on games I think Messi and Ronaldo are ahead of him already.
Incidently I remember a few of these type arguments in the past I have eventually won !!!
1. I argued with you last new year that Barca would take Ibra ahead of Etoo – you said they wouldn’t and got really angry when Iain and Kyle agreed with me!!
2. In May you argued with me (before Arsenal CL games) that Fletcher wouldn’t get in Man Utd starting 11, and even then at a push in right midfield!!
3. I said in July that I would have Pique in my world 11 and you looked at me with disgust at the thought of me not picking Ferdinand and Vidic!! Guess who has him in their World 11 now?
Your on to a loser here again Pancreas.
I seem to recall Paul McShane was the one that stood out that day the most....SHITTEST player I have seen in the flesh!!!
Seem to recall Saha was ledge that day too - Rooney was awesome!
2009-12-04 - Added by Thebear Zidane for me has to be ahead of Messi and ronaldo just now! However, should be noted that Zidane didn't start reaching his peak til 27/28 years old and both Ronaldo and more so Messi have plenty time til then. I for one feel although Ronaldo is the more complete player at the moment i.e Fantastic physical ability and brilliant in the air I feel only Messi has the potential to rival Maradona and Pele.
Should note that there is also plenty of time for injury to curtail either players career. Although must say the only time I have seen ronaldo play in the flesh, Wayne Rooney stood out a country mile more than ronaldo for me despite Ronaldo notching a brace that day (Panner sure you will confirm)!
Saying u like making these statements early is a joke!!!
Hardly rocket science to say one day they might - certainly on the way to doing it!!!!
So you can't take any credit for two players who are by far and away the best players at present one day eclipsing what Zidane did!
No way!!
And so what about the advent of the Internet - its not about that - its about playing against the very best when the stakes are at the highest. The grandest stage of them all.
Facts are Zidane scored two goals in the final - led an average side to the final in 2006 and scored then - albeit a penalty!
He is at this present time unquestionably ahead of Messi and Ronaldo!!!
Messi has been getting pelters in his homeland for not producing it for Argentina - ok to do it for arguably the greatest club team ever seen
He may one day beat Zidane but no chance in heck after one and a half seasons are you telling me he is better than Zidane!!!
No chance - and im pretty sure the majority would agree with me!
2009-12-04 - Added by JamDav1982 I don’t know how many times I need to day this but I am not basing this on careers, but how good I think they have been at their very best. If it was chosen by careers the top 5 would be different.
The point has been already shown that Juv and Madrid were more successful before and after Zidane left.
I don’t think that performances in the World Cup are as important these days in determining the best player in the world. Largely due to the advent of the internet people now have instant access to the best players around the world and can watch them in their domestic leagues week after week.
Personally I don’t think Zidane ever dominated an international tournament anyway, but that’s not to say he wasn’t an important part of Frances success.
In their current international set ups I very much doubt Messi or Ronaldo will be dominating a World Cup any time soon, but the fact is Zidane in these same sides would have just as little impact. As you said previously France arguably had probably best international defence ever, which makes Portugal and Argentina’s back fours laughable in comparison, so its not a level playing field.
Messi and Ronaldo for me are at the moment better than Zidane ever was.
I like making these statements early then eventually watch everyone else realise I’m right!!
But I am sure in the past you have said "judge players on World Cup" therefore i have no problem with Fat Ronaldo number 1 - indeed looking at his record lately (done with a dodgy knee for half of it) means he could very well be number 1.
But to have Messi and Ronaldo ahead of Zidane is a joke - genuinely i think a Buffon save away with easilty being up there with Pele and Maradona
The facts are that he was the leader of those sides he played in - France were defensively solid (best back four at international level iv seen) but Zidane made them tick - won the World Cup, Confed and Euros with them.
Messi and Ronaldo are yet to produce in World Cups - and until they do, which they might this summer, there no way ahead of Zidane - done it for two seasons?! Zidane was at the peak of his powers for a lot longer!!
2009-12-04 - Added by JamDav1982 The top 10 players I have seen would be -
1.Fat Ronaldo
2.Messi
3.Ronaldo
4.Zidane
5.Ronaldinhio
I am judging that on what level I have seen them produce over a complete season and not over their careers.
Panner you state that ‘Zidane was at the hub everything France, Juventus and Real Madrid won’.
That’s simply not true look at how these teams performed with and without Zidane -
Juventus – 5 years before Zidane - 2 lgs, 1 CL
Juventus – 5 years with Zidane – 2 lgs 0 CL
Madrid – 5 years before Zidane – 2 lgs, 2 CL
Madrid – 5 years with Zidane – 1 lg, 1 CL
Madrid and Juventus both went on to win 2 league titles in a row in the seasons after Zidane left, after each not winning it for his last 3 seasons with him at each club.
I’m not slating Zidane but certainly at club level he never had as big an influence in winning trophies as some make out. As for his international trophies I don’t think he ever dominated a tournament in the way that many of the top players have in the past.
(Not sure if those Juv/Madid stats are correct couldn’t be bothered double checking. I’m sure you will correct me if I’m wrong Pan)
By the way u say with them type of players - i take it u mean Ronaldinho as well???
He has in actual fact achieved more than him...so if Kaka aint up there in ur mind neither is Ronaldinho?
Credit where credit is due...
Kaka is up there - FIFA World Player of the Year, Serie A title, Two Champions League winners medals, World Cup, Copa America, Confederations Cup.
For two years, like Ronaldinho as well, he was the best player on the planet!!!
Gerrard is class but not in the same way!!!
2009-12-04 - Added by Thebear But agree this summers world cup is the perfect status for players to cement their status as legends of the game - ronaldo, Rooney, Kaka etc.
Interestingly for me the team I think will win it - Spain don't have one outstanding talent that they rely on like the others above. England won't win it without Rooney, Argentina without Messi but I would still fancy Spains chances without Villa or Torres but not both.
2009-12-04 - Added by Thebear I'll be honest I wouldn't put Kaka in with them players Panner! I don't feel he has done enough to warrant being mentioned in that sort of company. For me personally if you were to include Kaka, people like Gerrard would need to be included. That man has been the hear beat of that Liverpool teams for years and would put him above KAKA.
2009-12-03 - Added by BobbyB Defensively teams have improved so much over the years, im not trying say Pele and Maradona's success was unfounded but they were greats 'in their time'.
Zidane should be seen as the greatest ever because of his ball retention, he rarely gave the ball away or made the wrong decision.
He became one of the few player who have come closest to eclipsing perfection on the pitch and that was because he was mentally sound regardless of his undoubted technical ability.
Ronaldo has a long way to before he up there with Zidane or even the other greats, Messi is much closer because he knows the limits of when to pass and when to run.
Ronaldo needs to learn that, he cant always use his physical prowess to win games!
100 per cent mate.
As I am too young to have seen Pele and Maradona live - they are definitely the two best players I have ever seen.
Messi and Ronaldo will undoubtedly close that gap - while there are the likes of Henry, Kaka and Ronaldinho, who have been ledge over the piece as well.
2009-12-03 - Added by Thebear Although I do think its more difficult to be a great these days, as the all round standard has improved and you quite often find that people regarded as good footballers these days are nothing better than brilliant athletes who have worked ahrd on what they have.
Must say Fair play to these guys tho!
2009-12-03 - Added by Thebear Zidane and and Fat ronaldo are musts in my book!
So you would have Pele, Maradona and Cruyff ahead of Ronaldo and Messi?
But not Zidane? What about Brazilian Ronaldo?
And you think Messi can get to Pele and Maradona status - sure he needs to win World Cup though right?
2009-12-03 - Added by JamDav1982 Sorry, meant Van Basten not Cruyff. From what ive seen and heard about Cruyff I would still have him ahead of Ronaldo and Messi.
Agree with what you are saying to an extent JamDav...
I don't think he will ever reach Pele or Maradona, and its the same for Messi unless he goes on to be instrumental in helping Argentina win the World Cup.
In my opinion, thats where you need to do it as well as with your club side for a sustained period.
In relation to creativity - you can't say Ronaldo is not creative - the mere fact of pulling two defenders to him on his charging runs means he is 'creating' space for others.
And its worh remembering there are times he could get more assets but shoots and scores instead.
Finally, I disagree with the point about Zidane (too young to pass judgement on Cruyff). U mention Ronaldo lacks creavity and teamwork like Maradona and Pele.
Yet Zidane had those things in abundance - so 2/3 aint too bad and is better than Ronaldo's 1/3 that u claim.
Zidane was at the hub everything France, Juventus and Real Madrid won - slightly behind Pele and Maradona along with Brazilian Ronaldo in my book.
2009-12-03 - Added by JamDav1982 I can’t see Ronaldo being mentioned in the same breath as these two in the future, unless he increases his all round game. He is one of the most dangerous goslscorers in the world, but lacks the ability to marry this with creativity and teamwork like the two mentioned above did. Also he never controls games either in the way that these two did.
Easily he is one of the best two players in the world at the moment, but cant see him ever being mentioned alonside these two. In my opinion Messi has a far better chance of that.
Also I would also say the level that Messi and Ronaldo have played the last couple of seasons is above Zidane or Cruyff ever achieved.
Would tend to agree with you on that one...still only 24 so he has plenty of time on his side.
For me in order to be recognised with the likes of Pele, Maradona and even Ronaldo and Zidane, Cristiano would need to be instrumental in helping Portugal win a World Cup.
Those greats have - and i think if you are to be recognised as the best you need to showcase your talents on the grandest stage.
A few more UEFA Champions League winners medals with Real wouldn't go a miss either!
If Ronaldo can stay fit, maintain his hunger and determination, and keep mentally strong and idealistic, then the sky is the limit.
There is no reason why he cannot go on to become a great alas Zidane, Cruyff, Van Basten BUT...he will be short on the Gods like Pele and Maradona - sorry Ron he wud need to destroy at least 2 World Cups and score tons of goals at the very highest club level
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Never said that Real Madrid would def beat Man Utd/Arsenal, just that I would have them favourites to do so. I am just basing this on what I have seen this season and how Real played against Barca.
Also just because a league is closer than previously it doesnt mean it is getting better, could just aswell show that the top sides are not so strong, which I think is the case.
Another point is that Real have come against the better sides (other than Barca) without Ronaldo - AC Milan (h,a) Sevilla (a) Atletico (a) and he is due to miss away to Valencia on Saturday I think. Which goes to show why Ronaldo's goal record is so good! avoiding all the good teams away from home!
Also Ronaldo is playing as a striker now, too lazy and selfish for midfield!!
Aston Villa beat Deportivo? I cant believe anyone who watches EPL and La Liga would say that. For christ sake Aston Villa got knocked out in the qualifying round of the Uefa Cup by Sturm Graz!!
I would put big money on Depor to beat them.
Obviously we have a different opinion, but as i have said the facts point to the Spanish league being stronger. Its all about the trophies and the players the two indicators of how we can judge.
Canna be arsed working out my two selects, but the fact that 6 of the top 7 play in La Liga says it all.