Fact Checking the Fact Checkers

So I see that TPM, too, has called Glenn Kessler on his shoddy "fact checking" as well -- albeit with less invective and far fewer obscenities. 

Kessler and I had a little exchange via email in which he chided me for my incivility, while steadfastly failing to address the issue that I raised, seeking instead to validate his work because he 1) criticizes Republicans too; and 2) other "fact checkers" have reached similar conclusions to him.  It's almost a parody of Village responses -- hurt feelings and validation via "plague on both your houses" bipartisanship:

Kessler to me:

You know, the world would be a better place if people didn't feel free to send such invective to people they have never met. I don't wish you ill and always am interested to hear the opinions of others.  I am skeptical of all claims made by Republicans and Democrats, so if you are looking for a partisan viewpoint you will have to go someplace else.  I simply don't take BS from either side.

I have been equally tough on Republicans regarding Medicare and the Ryan plan. I did not view this as a debate over semantics but whether the DSCC was misleading people, which it was.

Some examples of my critiques of Republicans on this issue: (omitted by me - I don't care.)

SC to Kessler:

I wished you ill because I am incredibly angry about what I see as your own untruthfulness here and the fact that you 1) obviously have not had the painful experience that would be necessary for you to derive suitable wisdom about the health care system and private insurance versus a single payer system; and 2) because you, and people in your position, are responsible for allowing the kind of harmful misinformation about the Ryan Plan -- claiming that it is not ending Medicare as we know it -- to be given the veneer of respectability.  What you say, sadly, will influence many people's notions of what is true here even though you don't seem to have the least bit of an idea what you are talking about. 
 
I am not interested in a partisan viewpoint -- I am interested in an accurate characterization of what Ryan proposes and why it is, in fact, the elimination of Medicare in any meaningful sense.
 
I am not interested in what you have said about the Republicans distortions of what the Affordable Care Act does to Medicare.  You are operating from the typical false equivalency position that is characteristic of many Post writers -- the notion that the truth always lies in between and that by splitting the middle and declaring a plague on both houses, you somehow arrive at a greater truth.  But that just isn't the case -- what it allows is for debate to be continually dragged rightward as there is really no limit to what the Republican Party will proffer as the truth.
 
So again, how can you claim that Ryan's Plan does not eliminate Medicare?  You can keep the name, but so fundamentally alter the program as to render it unrecognizable.  A single payer, universal program providing health care coverage is simply not the same thing -- by a long shot -- of a needs based voucher program that requires individuals to purchase private insurance from for-profit companies.  It just isn't.  And this is what Ryan proposes.  
 
I believe that what you are doing here is reflecting the Washington Post's multiple institutional biases on this issue.  Those are: 1) that Medicare is unsustainable and needs to be fundamentally changed; 2) that the voting public will generally not like such changes because they are hopelessly unrealistic about what can be afforded; 3) that the Ryan Plan is a courageous and admirable approach to resolving the problems that the Post sees; and 4) therefore, completely accurate, but populist oriented critiques of the Ryan Plan must be attacked as demagoguery because if they prove politically successful, attempts at reform will be off the table.  
 
You are certainly free to make that case.  I don't agree, but at least it would be accurate. 
 
But instead you chose to give credibility to the defenders of the Ryan Plan by mischaracterizing the Democratic attacks on the Plan as lies.  Your "four Pinocchios" rating will most assuredly be used for partisan purposes -- surely, something you understand.  And your rating doesn't withstand any kind of reasonable scrutiny.
 
Again, all rancor aside, explain to me how it is that the Ryan Plan is not really the end of Medicare for those of us under age 55.  Because I don't think you can do it.

Kessler to SC:

I tried to be civil and engage in a conversation but you clearly have made presumptions about what kind of life experiences I have had, of which you have no knowledge, and also have a mistaken impression about how The Washington Post institutionally operates. I am sure it makes no difference to you, but the conclusion I reached is similar to the conclusions reached by the fact checkers at PolitiFact and factcheck.org. I frankly only care about the facts and have no interest in how partisans might or might not use the material in my column. I have had a hope that my column might elevate the conversation in Washington but sadly your unwarranted and extreme invective suggests that is not the case.

SC to Kessler:

People politer than I am have reached the same conclusion without invective.
 
Perhaps you will see fit to respond to them.(Citing above TPM article).

Kessler to SC:

if you actually read that article, you will see they had the decency to contact me, politely, and my response is in there.

SC to Kessler:

I read the article and didn't think your response was adequate -- the issue is not whether the Ryan Plan would end all health care support for seniors -- it will, in the future, supply inadequate and ever diminishing support for some senior citizens to purchase insurance on the open market.

This is not the same thing as Medicare and, indeed, represents the effective end of Medicare. 

And that is not even getting into what happens to support for Medicare by those of us who, like me, have paid huge sums of money into the program and are being told we will never receive its benefits.  How long do you think an entitlement program can retain necessary political support when it has been effectively limited to those lucky enough to have reached a certain age?  

But putting that aside, you are really not answering the question of how it is "a lie" -- a pretty strong statement -- to characterize the Ryan Plan as ending Medicare. 

And no more was heard from him.

 

Now truth be told, I probably should have been more civil in my approach, but am in the midst of a couple of different family medical emergencies that have lessened my patience with respect to this kind of claptrap.  But Mr. Kessler's all important feelings aside, he is absolutely and completely wrong and demonstrates that fact with his defensive and evasive responses. 

 

I feel like this all gets back to where I started with blogging -- this overwhelming sense that we so need a better media than we have and the people in these positions are virtually incapable of thinking critically or courageously about these problems.  Instead, they feel a desperate need to engage in the equivalence game and to be able to argue from authority when called on it.  They are worse than useless.

 

Comments

[Paula B]

Cal Legislature Passes Budget
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/16/us/16california.html?hp

[Toast]

I almost posted something this morning, realized I hadn't passed the fucking random letter verification thingy, and said, ah, fuck it.

Dude? You wished physical ill on him, something that I, a guy who observes a weapons-free zone most of the time when it comes to politics, stay away from except in extreme cases (Rove, Norquist, Cheney, Breitbart - real shit-suckers who need to get beat down). And then you wished ill on his family, which is a weird guilt-by-association thing I couldn't condone under any circumstances.

You're 100% right on the merits. But I gotta say, I don't blame the dude for reacting the way he did. In fact, in his position, I probably would have ripped you three new assholes.

[beckya57]

Sir C, I had some concerns also about how you expressed yourself, though of course you're completely right on the merits. What also jumped out at me was your comment about family medical emergencies. I'm really sorry that's happening to your family.

[Paula B]

I see now that I confused this new post with your morning post, to which something like 50 comments were hung. Aha!

Also, I posted numbers related to Ryan on one of your last two posts. Aaargh! Numbers may be depressing, but they're an important part of the argument that needs to be made against such an abominable plan. Sorry for the confusion.

You sound exhausted, SC, if not by all this to-ing and fro-ing, then by whatever medical issues you're dealing with.

This may be little consolation, but look at the riots that took place today in Greece and the threats of rioting in the UK over austerity government. When people start realizing what the GOP is REALLY proposing, I predict they'll take to the streets.

There's no way young people can spend 20 years paying off college loans, then do another 20 saving to supplement their old-age health insurance premiums. Where do living expenses come in? What about children? A car? A house? It's insane, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to explain it. But, somebody needs to start doing it.

Last weekend, my husband and I sat down with two of our grown kids and explained what Ryan and privatization of SS would mean to them, in living color. At first they chuckled, but eventually I think they heard us. Although they and their friends are fed up with Obama for failing to accomplish all he promised, they're starting to see how miserable they'd be if we reverted back to 1960, where the GOP yearns to take us. Let's hope they tell 1500 or so of their closest Facebook friends.

[Sir Charles]

Toast,

Yeah, I was pretty harsh -- but I really wish some of these assholes had some notion of what it is like to deal with health problems and obtaining private health insurance -- especially for elderly people.

becky,

I've got a few things going on that are definitely taxing my patience a bit. But I've got to say, guys like Kessler really piss me off. They are aiding one of the most insidious misinformtation campaigns I've ever seen.

Watch -- you will see campaigns citing the idea that "even the liberal Washington Post" -- ha! -- gave four Pinnochios to the Democratic claim.

Paula,

You are doing a good service by explaining these issues to your kids. They, too, will someday need both Social Security and Medicare in something like their present form.

[nancy]

Paula--Here at our home too, that "reality" discussion is taking place and it's tough. Much more to come if the Republicans have their way, with concerns now bridging three generations for lots of families.

That said, this guy, with his national audience, deserved SC's derision and then some. People like Kessler are, without his quite understanding it I think, speaking to many folks who are without decent hometown news sources, or time to do deep "fact-checking"--they may well read thse synopses from afar and that's it. WaPo pronouncements (four Pinocchios) live on, and then some, and take on filtered but approved opinions on smaller "market" (jeez, i hate that term) editorial pages across the country. This matters a lot.

SC--Wish you well.

[beckya57]

John Cole and DougJ at Balloon Juice also have very harsh words for Kessler.

[big bad wolf]

with harsh words at three places, they may think it's a movement

[Sir Charles]

nancy,

Thanks. And exactly.

bbw,

Anything but harsh words. Mr. Kessler will have to find his fainting couch.

[Krubozumo Nyankoye]

Ha ha, a movement, bbw nice touch. It is in fact a matter of the millions against the few. But the few have the money.

SC- I have read the criticisms of your rant and I have read your rant and the so called dialog you had. I didn't take away any sense of a deliberate threat made by you so perhaps the post by Toast deserves a bit of scrutiny.

To the main point, however, you appear to me to be completely correct. The fact check thing has become a game, the liars have just created their own fact checkers. Your point is also valid, anyone supposedly credible enough to merit national attention is thereby obligated to be also honest. Pronouncing dishonest viewpoints to a national audience is simply propaganda.

I would, however point out one thing. There is nothing to be gained from debating with willfull liars. It may be better to simply enumerate the lies.

[oddjob]

how miserable they'd be if we reverted back to 1960, where the GOP yearns to take us

I think you meant to say 1890. In retrospect 1960 was actually a pretty good time, so far as I'm aware. The Republican president in office at the time dismissed the ideas driving today's GOP as extremist and stupid.

[Paula B]

Must be something in the air. Ronni Bennett at Time Goes By reiterates your feelings this morning, a bit more politely at http://www.timegoesby.net/weblog/2011/06/the-republican-agenda.html

"It's hardly an exaggeration to say they want me – and every other person who receives benefits from Social Security, SSI, Medicare, Medicaid and the military – to die for lack of those benefits we pay for with our tax dollars.
And while they are at it, they will include all workers who ever tried to afford private health coverage and feed their kids at the same time or to organize themselves against the corporate overlords who continue to cut their salaries and fire them.
You don't need to trust me on this. They are completely open about it. On any given day, read any newspaper or listen to sycophant, media enablers on every television news program.
Every proposal and demand that falls from Republican lips is designed to lead the rest of us to an early grave and without fail, the media gives them a pass by not pointing out their lies. This, in 21st century newspeak, is called “fair and balanced reporting” and it's not only on Fox News."

[oddjob]

It's like Grayson said. The GOP's healthcare plan is, "Don't get sick; but if you do get sick, die quickly."

[Death Panel Truck]

"with harsh words at three places, they may think it's a movement"

At three places, it's an organization. It takes fifty places for a movement ;)

Nice reference to "Alice's Restaurant."

[big bad wolf]

death panel truck, true. i just can't name fifty blogs so i abbreviated. :) death panel truck is a great handle.