And they are paying for 75 million(+) of dollars in political campaign ads. Many funded by foreign corporations.
Lifted from the comments on the Daily Collegian. You may find these funny and amusing, but I can tell you first hand that this is just the tip of the iceberg for the ridiculous questions and accusations you must respond to as a gay person in America.
Enjoy.
1. Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, birth control and air conditioning.Read more...
2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
3. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
4. Marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all: women are property, matches are arranged in childhood, blacks can't marry whites, Catholics can't marry Jews, divorce is illegal, and adultery is punishable by death
5. Gay marriage is wrong because children might be led to think that it is right and that would clearly be wrong.
6. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.
7. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
8. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.
9. If we look to the word of God, His punishment for sexual immorality is equal to that of murder. Therefore, teaching kids to tolerate homosexuality is equal to teaching them to tolerate murder.
10. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.
OK, so look kids.
No I am not happy with our President, but I am not willing to go out there and lay my nose on a block and cut it off out of spite to make some juvenile point to a party of politicians that don't care about my petty little nose.
This mid-term election is about winning, just like all others. And some might say this one is more important to win than the past one. Majority is at stake, sure. That is true.
What is more important to me than winning majority is sending the most extreme candidates packing with a message to the base that the repugnant messages and beliefs of the Tea Party and the most conservative "values" voters are NOT the will of the majority! If so much as ONE of those hideous candidates win it will lend an air (albeit thin air) of validity to the plight of these lowest of low, pray on the hate of the populace, politicians.
It is time to put our disappointments aside and vote like Republicans. It is time for us to go in and pull the democrat lever with gusto and let the winners fight it out for our future. It is NOT the time to make a statement by not showing up to vote. It is NOT the time to try to take the high road because you are disappointed. It's politics, there will always be disappointments. But for me, the fear of things much worse that what we have now is a motivator that simply can't be denied.
If ever there was an election when I just didn't feel like it, this is it. But this election is as important as every other, and perhaps more than most. This election is about the Tea Party. This election is about the bald-faced ignorance & bigotry of candidates like Toomey, O'Donnel, Palidino, and so many others. This is about US sending a message to all of them that you are WRONG about claiming that "I am you."
This election is about sanity. This election is about rhetorical honesty. This election is about giving them a chance to make it right before 2012. Sure, we have no reason to trust that democrats will deliver on their promises. But... We have EVERY reason to believe that Republicans will continue to block EVERY piece of legislation. We have EVERY reason to believe that reason in politics will die with every elected GOP member. Division is the what the GOP champions. Wall Street over Main street. Tests over critical thinking. Ignorance and hate over reason and equality. Republicans are SCARY... Scarier than the greatest short coming of any Democrat.
Sure, Democrats have disappointed you in that last two years, but is there any part of you that believe the Republicans have undergone some vast reinvention where they will put everyday citizens ahead of the rich? The GOP is dangerous. The Tea Party is scary.
Democrats are the only chance we have. So I am voting for Democrats this year because I am SCARED of the alternative. I bet you are too. Our voting majority is STRONG... Now, lets go to the polls and show them exactly how strong it is.
I don't get how any Pennsylvania citizen can see past the obvious parallels in the philosophies of these two right-wing nut-job politicians.
Toomey values jobs & the economy... Of CHINA!
“As a former GOP Congressman from the late 1990s through 2004, Toomey put together a legislative voting record that’s to the right of Ken Starr on LGBT issues. He openly supported a federal amendment to the U.S. Constitution banning gay marriage. He voted to ban gay adoptions in the District of Columbia. He voted for the Marriage Protection Act of 2004 (largely seen as an effort to completely overthrow the U.S. judicial system and usurp the power of federal courts and the U.S. Supreme Court).If you believe the banks are the bad guys, you shouldn't vote for Toomey.
“Pat Toomey brings the same anti-LGBT perspective to politics that Rick Santorum had. The real difference between Toomey and Santorum is that Toomey is far more craven and intelligent than Santorum, and he could really wreak havoc in Washington if Pennsylvania sends him to the Senate."
"On CNN yesterday, Pat Toomey claimed that he led a filibuster. Really? He’s obviously proud of his status as a Stalwart Republican Naysayer!Need a more succinct biography to make your choice?
Except that in the House of Representatives, where Pat Toomey served, there is no filibuster." (read on)
"Pat Toomey started working for Chemical Bank on Wall Street in 1984 as a derivatives dealer. In 1986, he moved to Morgan, Grenfell & Co., another Wall Street bank, to start their derivatives trading operation.[1]
Pat Toomey opposed the stimulus; he supports cutting spending and cutting off aid to states; and he supports cutting taxes for everyone, including the top 1% of income earners. Toomey supports eliminating the corporate income tax all together[2], he supports cutting the capital gains tax and he supports eliminating the estate tax. Toomey voted to privatize Social Security and even included a chapter on how to do so in his book. Toomey believes that states should be free to ban abortions, he voted for a Constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage, and believes that hate crime legislation is wrong.[3]
Pat Toomey voted to repeal the Glass-Steagall Act which lead directly to the rise of "too big too fail" financial institutions like Citigroup. He also voted for the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 which kept OTC derivatives, like the ones that lead to the financial crisis, unregulated."
"From 1998 to 2004, he served as Congressman from Northampton/Lehigh County. From 2005 to 2009, he served as president for the Club for Growth, an organization dedicated to purging "RINOs," or moderate Republicans, from the party. He has a degree in political science from Harvard. He is a conservative of the Tea Party variety."This is an election where you must seriously consider your choices. Our future as a nation depends on your careful evaluation of both candidates. As if it weren't already clear:
Promises. They are about as good on a teleprompter as they are when written on toilet paper.
Both are designed to be discarded.
President Obama once declared the DADT law as "abhorrent" and that he would overturn it. He has repeated this pledge a thousand times on the campaign trail to the Presidency, and their are countless videos to prove it.
Now, a judge gives him a gift of a FEDERAL overturn of the law, and the President is going to APPEAL that decision. In other words, he is going to continue to DEFEND the constitutionality of DADT and continue to discharge soldiers in spite of the majority American support for the repeal.
I said it before, when candidate Obama was on the trail, that he was NO FRIEND of the gay community. I was right.
I guess this is what you get when you HOPE.
You have to know about this. And if you don't you need to learn about it... NOW!
Republicans are running attack ads. That is not news. That is part of the everyday landscape of our process. Both parties do this.
The difference this election season is where the funding for these ads is coming from. Foreign (read NOT AMERICAN) businesses & political entities disguised as businesses are funneling record amounts of "anonymous" cash into our elections to influence the outcome. The US Chamber of Commerce is an aggressive fundraising operation who now has international offices across the globe. Why would they do that you think? It's to raise money! So they can say they are "defending small businesses." Sounds pretty GOP to me! Think of all the multi-national corporations that would love to see the continuation of the deregulation of industry in America. How much would they love to see us continue to ship jobs offshore, to them! I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory. And to be honest, it was one until the Supreme Court, under the leadership of John Roberts, struck down a key component of McCain-Feingold. That law explicitly forbids corporations from influencing elections. Now, those same corporations are seen as "individuals" or people. Thereby as a person, they have the right to Free-Speech, and the law can't limit them. I can't say that I totally disagree with the decisions, as the law itself was not crafted correctly from the start. However, our Congress and the President should have made changing this with a new specific law priority number one!
In any event, the resultant flood of corporate cash on the current elections is mind numbing. Think Progress has outlined specifics. You MUST go there and read it. Our country, at the hands of the US Chamber of Congress is being stolen. Foreign corporations are BUYING the outcome of our elections. Oil companies, banks, and health insurance companies. What place do businesses in Bahrain, China, India, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Russia, and many other places have in our political process? Are you really so clueless as to believe that these businesses in these nations are not interested in undermining our government, our economy, and our core values? Businesses are NOT interested in anything other than self-preservation through profit and the consolidation of wealth, power, and cheap labor. What's worse is that media outlets and candidates are defending the US Chamber and trying to say Democrats are lying about what they do, even when the Chamber itself says that the reporting is accurate. This statement just supports what I have said:
The US Chamber of Commerce has responded to this post in a statement to the Politico's Ben Smith. The Chamber's Tita Freeman did not dispute that the Chamber's 501(c)(6) organization running attack ads receives foreign funds, and simply claimed, "We have a system in place" to prevent foreign funding for the Chamber's "political activities."When they put the dues of these "corporate members" from around the globe in the "general fund" and then use that money to fund blatantly biased attack ads, how exactly are they preventing foreign funding from their
Obviously, I got no reply to this. I thought today was a good day to share this oldie but a goody. Growing up gay in the 80's was no picnic. My message today: Life does get better!
Dear Senator Specter:Read more...
I am writing to you because I have had about enough of people making statements that either directly, or indirectly imply that being gay is a choice. Unfortunately, this position seems to be very popular, and espoused by some uninformed -- straight people. First question I always have is, how would you know that...You're straight!
As politicians seem to love a good warm fuzzy, real American story to support all the good they have done, I thought I would share with you my experience as a gay man. This way, when you do the right thing, and stand up against the proposed Amendment to the Constitution, barring gay marriage, you will have a good human interest photo-op all ready to go.
So, lets look back, shall we?
I have always had a romantic interest in people of the same gender. When I say always, I am talking, since I can remember, and that would be age 4 or 5. I had a crush on one of my childhood peers at 5 and then on my PE teacher in elementary school. These were innocent little crushes. The same as any small kid has. Nothing dirty, sexual, or otherwise tawdry. I just thought I was in love with them. I did not know I was gay, I didn't know that my "likes" were strange to the rest of the world. I was just a little kid with a crush. Too young to know labels, too innocent of the world to know that my crush was anything but normal.
That was the case until 3rd grade, and I remember this vividly.
I was going out to the play ground for lunch break, and there were a group of kids off the path heading to the play ground. Something was clearly going on, as it was a group of older boys in a small circle around another boy. Approaching I could hear them laughing. They were clearly taunting him. He was crying. I was afraid. I didn't want them to shift their attention to me. No one likes to be picked on. Anyway, I heard them calling him "gay." This kid was so upset, they were calling him names and pushing him around. Well, I just kept on walking and stayed out of it. Thankful they hadn't noticed me.
Later that night, curiosity got the better of me. I needed to know what "gay" meant so I could make sure not to be gay. I did not want to get teased. So, innocently, I asked my mother what the word "gay" was. Her response was swift and definite.
"That is a very bad word. You should never call someone that. It's a bad thing."And that is all she said. Well, being a third grader, and even at that age, very concerned about not drawing the bullies attention to me, I was not satisfied with that answer. I already knew it was bad, I just needed to know what it was, so I could make sure I was never gay. So, off to Websters I went, and looked it up. I read the definitions, and a terror deep inside me opened wide.
Now, I didn't fully understand the implications of the definition. I certainly didn't link it to anything sexual. I mean, come on, I was in third grade! But, I did know from the vague definition that it meant when boys loved boys, and I knew I did that! I was gay!
I was petrified!
And from that day forward, I lived in total fear that someone would figure it out! Obviously, as I grew and became more aware of the world around me, I found out just how much gay people were hated! I saw countless examples of boys in school being harassed and called gay. Gay is bad, but gay is me.
I decided to deep six every feeling I had towards any men. (at the time boys). As I headed towards High School, then this awful "plague" started hitting the gay community. So now, not only was I afraid the guys at school would find out and kill me, there was a disease that killed just fags. Life sucked. I was wrapped in a society of terror. Unless I was alone, I was not safe.
It got worse freshmen year, when a teacher at my school died of AIDS, and the school, the local community, and others went on a gay witch hunt. Teachers were fired, his memory was defiled. I continued to hide, lie, and otherwise deny to the world the very core of my existence.
That year just kept getting worse for me. Someone at the country club I worked at died of AIDS. Do you know, this highly affluent Washington Area country club actually fired ALL of the staff in the restaurant because some may have been gay, and they could give the members AIDS. All of them, not on fact, on conjecture. I was spared because I didn't work with the food, but I was more concerned than ever!
I was not safe at home, at school, at work. I was not safe to be me anywhere. At every turn, and in every corner of my young world, being gay meant death.
I kept faux girlfriends through high school. Trying to come up with valid excuses whenever they wanted to get intimate. I knew I would be found out then, cause that was something I couldn't fake. I couldn't act my way into appearing straight then. Everyone would know.
Fortunately, I grew up and made it to college. I became more confident, and I came out on my terms. I have now been in a committed, monogamous relationship for 12 years. All my friends know, all my family knows, coworkers, employers...You. I have no secrets anymore. I am lucky. I am finally, truly free of my fear.
Until the gay marriage debate opened my eyes once again to how ignorant people can be. All these people. Straight people claiming things about my life. They don't know! Are they gay? No. I am gay. I am the expert. I am the authority, yet people seem to listen to them. People are happy to believe I chose this. That I wanted to be a "pervert." I chose.
Well, I am here to tell you, I most certainly did NOT choose this. I was born this way, and as an American citizen, who has a committed loving relationship, and who votes the same way, and pays taxes the same way every other American does, I deserve...No, let me restate, it is my American birthright to be guaranteed the same rights under the law as EVERY other American. This includes all 1,049 rights the Federal government gives to straight couples.
So, Senator Specter, that is my story. I hope it means something to you. I know it means a lot to me.
It is me.
Thanks for your time and attention.
Yes, it's Columbus day, but it's also National Coming Out day!
I have read so much in the news of tragic teen suicides, incredibly awful bullying, beatings, torture, and hideously regressive rhetoric from politicians in the last few weeks. Just yesterday the Tea Party candidate in New York unleashed a torrent of hate on the gay community.
Hatred & ignorance are born of a lack of understanding and exposure. Assumptions are made about a people or a class of people from hearsay. These urban legends become common beliefs in the absence of meaningful experience. Visibility of the gay community is the only way to educate and soften the views of the heterosexual majority. I think every person in America knows and perhaps admires a great person who is gay. The trouble is that they don't know the gay part. Knowing that lifts us all up.
Knowing that can cause reflection, revelation, and perhaps even support in the place of hate, taunts, and trauma.
Not only is their safety in numbers. In numbers we have power. In numbers we offer exposure. With this visibility, we step closer to equality. With visibility we tell those kids that we understand. With visibility we tell politicians they are wrong and why. With visibility we change long held beliefs of the unexposed to the new support and understanding of friends.
So, like I did so many years ago. Come out! Be proud. You are NOT who they say you are! You are a PROUD, BRAVE American living the dream of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I have held my tongue so long, out of respect for those that I truly respect in this political community, but that is over now.
It is amazing to me how so many Democrats are actually surprised, and frankly, struggling to find new and valid excuses for the man on the road to making the "WORST PRESIDENT EVER" look like something of a work horse.
Sure, President Obama has accomplished some incrementally important things in his first couple of years in office. I am now in a place where I can comfortably and confidently say "I told you so" about this President of HOPE. I said from the get go that this President was no liberal. I said from the beginning he was no friend of the gay. I said from the beginning that his HOPE message was inconsistent with his political and personal history in public life. I knew he wouldn't deliver. I knew his message was really "You should HOPE that some of this will happen, because it should, but I am not going to get my hands dirty with it."
I was right.
President Obama quickly turned tail on virtually every promise he made on the election trail. And like Dumbya before him, had the audacity to believe that we don't know how to access YouTube and see the flawlessly rehearsed delivery of his campaign stump. I was right, his legacy is set.
Obama is the President that simultaneously (in less than two years time) energized a record number of Americans to vote and aggressively participate in the political process. He promised them HOPE and delivered them apathy. His greatest damage to the American psyche is that he brought so much to the table to then turn and leave it there without a care for the future. His voters were not like Dubya's. His voters were educated, connected, and engaged. They were smart. They paid attention. And that is why an entire generation will again turn their backs on the process. They HOPEd for CHANGE and what they got was more of the same.
The Obama sweep ushered in an unprecedented Democratic Majority. The dreams of HOPE were within our grasps, and then, as Democrats seem to often do, we became prisoners of our own promises. Democrats are the party of cowards. Whereas Republicans stick together, stay on message, and follow the leader to the letter; Democrats cower from controversy (perceived or real) and split into factions. People complain about the two party system, and say it's bad. In my estimation we aren't functioning in a "two-party" system. We are in a multiple party system as long as Democrats don't stick together and support one another the way Republicans do. Instead, Democrats side with Republicans and follow their lead to the detriment of the average citizen.
How else do you explain a deal to bar recess appointments of the Democratic President from his own party leaders? How else do you explain the fractional support of Health care reform? How else can you explain the half-assed attempt at financial reforms (how ya liking those new "annual membership fees?") How do you explain a majority that espouses support for the full repeal of DADT, but who never thinks the time is right to do it?
It all falls squarely on a President who speaks well but leads poorly. Unlike virtually every President in modern history, Obama has refused to dictate policy with clear leadership, demands, and closed door negotiations. Instead, he prefers to speak on a topic, tell the legislature this is the goal, and walk away. Is he new? He came from the Senate, and he knows full well that is NOT how our government runs. Leadership is REQUIRED to pass an agenda. Leadership is REQUIRED to craft & pass legislation. Continuity of message, continuity of votes, and success is all built upon strong LEADERSHIP.
What we have is a virtual absence of missions. A lack of leadership. A legislature caught in it's own petty power struggles BECAUSE the leader (read Obama) is NOT doing his job and LEADING his team. I liken it to Single-A baseball. All the players are good, but they never come together as a team. Each would like to win, but really ALL are more committed to their personal success and advancement. A legislature without a leader, filled with big egos, wanting to be bigger is the same. They swing at EVERYTHING in hopes of grabbing the spotlight. The spotlight is what it's all about. To be a STAR you have to hit SOMETHING out of the park. So they swing & swing. They have no interesting in winning the game, just in grabbing the spotlight for a moment. They tell the fans/voters they want to WIN! They give us HOPE that they will WIN! They explain the strategy to win, and then they leave each player on their own to survive.
The team never wins. We never win. We go for the majors, and we never get out of Single-A.
That's the truth.
We were told to HOPE. Then we learned HOPE was all we had. Hope and a prayer will not end wars, build an economy, create equality, or elevate us to our best American ideals. Without leadership all HOPE has done is alienate a generation of highly motivated voters to never show up again. Hope is a ship of fools that have sailed off into oblivion.
HOPE is then beginning and the end of an agenda that never had a chance, and will never have a shot like it did in these two years. Majority gone. Leadership absent. Hope... Dead.
Thanks for very little.
OK kids... I have had a long rest, and I am done resting. Long story short, my father died unexpectedly, and it shook my will to blog.
I am recovered for the most part.
Should someone call Rand Paul? I am sure they need a featured speaker.
Now sure, that's not entirely fair, but did you see Rand Paul attempt to avoid (over and over) questions from Rachel Maddow last night. She wanted a simple "Yes" or "No" answer to the question of if he believed it was OK for a business to refuse service to someone based on race? He REFUSED to answer the question, and kept dodging it, and trying to some how equate it to gun rights???
He is not an unintelligent man, so I don't see how he thinks his lofty comparison will some how distract the viewer from his dodge of the question... Over... And over... And over again.
This is going to be a big problem for Paul's candidacy, and rightfully so. The good people of Kentucky should be ashamed to have this man represent them. Even if we take him at face value that he is racist, and that he can't stand any kind of "government sanctioned bias," it is very difficult to see how his extreme view of civil rights is nothing more than an attempt to take three steps back from the "lunch counter" we only just made two steps forward to.
His skewed world view is frightening.
I for one hopes he keeps on going on TV and campaign stops talking about his opinions of civil rights in America. I especially hope he keeps speaking as a proud Tea Party Republican about these things. We have seen the basis of this movement as racist, and now there is a very high profile elected spokesperson for them that is having a difficult time denying the source of his opinions and words.
Hypocrisy meter is on HIGH alert kids! Keep tuned to this channel for more information as Rand Paul continues to dig himself into a hole.
I signed the letter, and if you care about equality, I hope you will too.
Dear Democrats,Sign the letter here! Read more...
We need to talk.
This may be a hard letter to read, but I need to figure out if this relationship is still healthy for me.
For the longest time, I thought we had something special. Remember how much fun we used to have back when we were young, and control of the Congress and the presidency was just a crazy dream? You always used to ask me for help, and you knew I'd never turn you down.
You were so adorable when we were courting. Sure, you never really understood me, but I liked that you seemed to try. The White House cocktail parties were totally fun, and that Easter Egg Roll is something I'll always cherish. Or remember the time you let me march in the Inaugural parade! Other than that whole Rick Warren thing, I really thought we had a connection.
I know you kept telling me that you weren't ready for marriage, but I was willing to wait since you had promised so much else in the meantime.
But now, I've kind of had it. I'm just not getting what I need out of this relationship. You rarely call me anymore, and when you do it's to ask for money. We talked about joining the military together -- but now it seems like you are flaking on that commitment. You promised to protect me from the homophobes at work, but you don't seem to be in a hurry to actually do it. And -- that Department of Justice brief thing was just cruel. I'll never understand why you did that.
It almost seems like you're embarrassed by me in public. I know not everyone in your family approves of us, but before you got your new job, it seemed like you didn't care what they thought and were always ready to fight for me. Now, it's like you're a different person.
Please don't take this the wrong way. I still think we have a future. I want us to have a future. But I need this relationship to be healthy for both of us. And I just can't get excited anymore by your empty promises and half-gestures.
I need you to take a real step. You know what I'm talking about -- the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell.
I still worry every day that I can be fired in 28 states just because I'm gay. And my friend who is transgender can be fired in 38 states. I know you can do it. You've helped protect people from employment discrimination on the basis of race, sex, religion, disability and many other characteristics. Each time me and my friend have been left behind. It's our turn. ENDA's time has come.
It's our turn to be welcomed into the military as well. I want to serve my country openly and proudly. I was so excited when you promised you would repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell this year after 17 long years of putting up with it.
Now, I can't even get you to talk about DADT.
You promised to change. I know that you can. But why should I stand by your side when you can't keep your promises to me?
I get that you're scared. But I'm scared too -- scared of losing you. You need to prove to me that you really care. You need to finally give me the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell, like you promised.
I have enough disappointments in my life. I need you to not be one of them.
Love,
See ya later Arlen. Your big party flip-flop wasn't enough to fool the voters of Pennsylvania. Those antics might work for Connecticut, but we don't want another Joe Lieberman embarrassing the voters of this state!
Sure, your reelection was important to PA just because of your seniority within the Senate, but it was also that seniority which was important for PA to shed. Time for new blood to represent us in the Keystone State.
I voted for Mr Sestak. I voted for Onorato. I voted for Scott Conklin. I only wish I could have voted for Critz!
Now it's time to get serious in PA! Mr. Onorato has a big competitor in Tom Corbett. He has branding & message experience behind him. Onorato has his work cut out for him on this one. What will be particularly interesting is the race is between two candidates from Allegheny County... aka... Pittsburgh. This will make Philly important for completely different reasons than usual, and I would expect to see them both spend lots of time and energy there trying to sway votes.
Sestak has a hill to climb, but hopefully it won't be too steep. His adversary in the race is Toomey. This man is a nut job of the likes that make Santorum look like a left wing liberal! If Sestak is on point he should have no trouble getting Toomey to FROTH the way Santorum did, and that should be enough to turn off the majority of the PA electorate to his message.
Best news of the night, that John Murtha's seat was retained by a Democrat. This was the only contest of the night between the two major parties, and it was a contest won by the Democrats. This victory is especially sweet as the GOP was being so obnoxiously arrogant that they would run away with this seat, when the reality in hind sight is that their message fell on deaf ears in District 12. And the best part of that is that this District went for McCain in '08. Now that's good stuff!
Things are pretty exciting in PA right now. I am looking forward to the next couple of months in the political arena of this state. Here's to Representative Scott Conklin, and my support of him for Lieutenant Governor. I want to be able to say "I knew him when..."
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