Amtrak: Taxpayers Subsidizing First Class
by Kristina RasmussenTraveling on Amtrak’s Texas Eagle from Chicago to St. Louis on November 10 will set you back $24. More, if you want to ride in a first class sleeper car compartment. Add $136 for a superliner roomette, $217 for a family bedroom, and $260 for a superliner bedroom.
But there’s a big problem. Even with higher charges, taxpayers are subsidizing first class sleeper service.
Amtrak’s Sleeper service comes with some nice perks. Beds to stretch out in, sometimes a private bathroom (no having to share the gross public toilet). Some rooms even come with a shower. On top of that:
Sleeping car passengers are entitled to a range of hotel-like amenities, including fresh linen and towel service, complimentary bottled water and daily newspapers.
A new Waste Action Alert details how cutting federal subsidies for first class sleeper car service on Amtrak could save up to $1.2 billion over ten years.
Why the spending is wasteful:
According to the Congressional Budget Office, “only 16 percent of Amtrak’s long-distance passengers use sleeper service, at a subsidy that ranged in 2004 from $269 to $627 per passenger and exceeded subsidies for coach service by at least 50 percent and sometimes more than 100 percent per route.” These losses are made up by taxpayers. During these increasingly tough economic times, taxpayers do not need to be additionally burdened by paying for turn-down service and pre-paid movies. This unprofitable activity is one reason that Amtrak has received $37 billion of taxpayer subsidies since 1970.
Rep. Mac Thornberry (TX-13) has introduced H.R. 5801 to cut federal subsidies for sleeper service. Amtrak could still offer the service, but it would have to set the price at its actual cost. Here is Rep. Thornberry talking about his bill.
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98 Comments
Wow!
That ain't no way to run a railroad.
I'd be willing to bet that Phillip Anschutz or Warren Buffett could show those "Government Railroaders" how to run a railroad, and profit from it, without subsidies.
Hey, the rich or at least well to do, need their fair share of subsidies too. Damn !
We better wake up the dumb masses before we are a third world banana republic.
Any arena in the economy in which the gov't is involved is an unqualified disaster. Just another reminder of what caused the birth of the Tea Party
I have an even bigger ripoff to expose than skAm-trak and it's coming at you faster than a speeding locomotive…
This is the 'next big thing' and the hearings start next week: http://www.americanprogress.org/kf/social%20secur...
From Townhall: http://www.independentlivingnews.com/pdf/Obama_Ad...
Sign the petition before it's too late! http://www.independentlivingnews.com/searchresult...
If we fail to stop this insanity dead in its track America and the entire free market system WILL DIE!
What a surprise, Taxpayers PAYING for everything AGAIN!
For all that we Taxpayers have been "ripped off" for, Obama should cut each and every one of US a CHECK from that stashed Stimulus money that he robbed from us!
Ther'll stimulate the economy.
If you think the Government can run a Railroad, and a Post office, just wait until Health Care kicks in. There will be corpses lining the street. I am surprised that with Healthcare, there wasn't a provision giving the Government the final authority for operating, and Nationalizing all the cemeteries nationwide. With one fell swoop, they could have controlled everything, from the womb to the tomb.
I heard that they're going to charge U.S. more tax money to fix up the U.N. and make it safer. I have an idea. How about knocking it down!
Just one more thing the govt runs really well and efficiently, I just thru up after reading it. It is simple folks, the govt only knows how to waste money. If anyone can name just one program that the govt runs efficiently and at or under budget I will be highly surprised and have to reconsider my view of the govt.
The checks would all bounce.
Where is Dagny Taggart when we need her? http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Political-Belle/…
Ok, give me a minute………….let me get back to you on that.
Is Czar Elizabeth Warren going to oversee this too? Fall in line Comrades!
Take all the time you need
I think she is over at Atlas Shrugs……
I never was a fan of Mac.
Maybe Czar Elizabeth Warren, of Obama's Consumer Dept., will be looking out for consumers here on this Train, and maybe she'll even turn Harry Reid's "Dream Act" into what it really is, – AN AMERICAN NIGHTMARE!
Long haul passenger rail is a failure in so many ways, tis just another example.
I would be reluctantly willing to let the Feds take over (through some financial transaction) ownership of much of the existing rail infrastructure. Then let the private train operators focus on producing a 1st class freight system using the cash they get for their tracks.
Trains are much more efficient for hauling heavy loads than for hauling humans, and perhaps we could reduce the 18 wheelers from tearing up our highways so much and reduce their max loads some. UPS and FEDEX ought to get in on this as well as potential major train operators and create some real competition.
I signed it Missy. Thanks for these links.
I take advantage of the Amtrak, but I know that it is subsidized. I use to be able to get a direct train from Milwaukee to Chicago for $14. Now I can go from San Diego to LA for $15, I never go to LA but I like to go to San Juan Capistrano and it's $14 and I normally get my 'own car' on the way home. Just me, the big comfy tax dollar paid for seat and a view of the ocean that would make a seagull envious. What a friggin rip off I know, but as long as my tax dollar is being pumped into it I'm taking advantage of it. I think though if they privatized and kept their mits off it, Amtrak could be profitable for owners and employees.
First off the term Czar used in our governemnt began during the Bush administration! I am in the passenger railroad business. No, and I repeat no, passenger service in the world makes money or even breaks even. Private enterprise wants nothing to do with it. Buffett or anyone else. That is why Amtrak was created in 1971 by the Nixon administration. You will save more money if you stop subsidizing the airlines. Of course then there would be no air service. Statistics show the the rich that use the sleeper service are the elderly. I do not work for Amtrak!
I'd be happy with Wyatt or Ragnar Danneskjold at this point.
Ok, I give up….anyone, Bueller, Beuller, Beuller?
I think she's Gone Galt. And frankly, I don't blame her.
i just read this very interesting article and it's broader in scoper than what we focus on as far as our economy and this administration. If you have the time:
http://jasonkelly.com/2010/09/trillion-dollar-con...
When Rand sent her Atlas manuscript to a railroad exec for technical proofreading, he wrote back to her with the question:
"Do you know that all of the regulations you describe in your novel are already on our books?"
Her reply: "Yes, I know it."
You wanna know why passenger rail is not profitable. There's the answer.
I saw Bueller at a ball game.
Snuck that in the backdoor I see. I cannot even state my anger over this Missy. Please tell me this won't pass, please.
Yes, I did sign the petition. ARGHHHH.
Oops Cowboy, didn't mean to leave you hanging out there all alone… I suddenly have a real bad
attitude today, and thought my observation was perhaps a bit terse.
Your comment on the Big J piece a while ago was spot on. I deleted the one I made over there be-
fore it went through. If these last few pieces are what's being served up today, maybe I need a
nap.
WHERE'S THE DAMN BEEF ????????
.
I've got the solution!
SELL AMTRAK! Privatize it! It should NEVER have been a GOVERNMENT entity!!!!
Just Sell it!
Never understood that. Auto companies don't have to pay for roads and the infrastructure on which cars travel on but train companies have to maintain their own track.
Have you forgotten that Amtrak is owned by the government? All subsidies should be cut. If it can't operate at a profit on its own, it doesn't deserve to operate at all.
Any time.
I hope to God this doesn't get through, it is however very likely that the DNC will embark on a 'scorched Earth" campaign should they lose both houses in November.
Beware the 'ducks' of December….
"We better wake up the dumb masses before we are a third world banana republic."
Gary, we have already arrived. Every other major country owns a piece of us. We are now economic slaves thanks to our socialist government and its spendthrift ways.
Sounds like HitlerCare.
Our unesteemed govt now wants to pull an Argentina on us. Never underestimate the corruption within the drank, dusty, scheming, and crook-filled halls of our congress and the administration.
The Government can't run water, much less a railroad or health care.
Short of the cemetaries, we are already there.
There is no one in the world that wants to operate passenger trains. There are no buyers. They do not make money! It is a public service. We have other public services also: airports, roads, interstate highways, police protection, fire departments, etc. None of these make money. Nixon realized that if he did not form Amtrak then it would be gone. He was a Republican. Do you want to privatize these other services also? Have you ever been on a train in the past 20 years?
Yours is the planning mentality that brings us disasters like Amtrak. You just can't imagine a country where people choose to transact freely and fairly. Instead you want to impose your "wisdom" on the rest of us, so that things "move faster" or we get the "oil monkey off our back". Why don't you propose a rickshaw subsidy?
The answer to these problems is to prevent by constitutional means, the interference of politicians in the free trade of individual who are not coercing or defrauding anyone. It's called freedom…it works.
Sorry but the government should not be subsidizing anything and the subsidies actually raise the price of travel, requiring more subsidies. The action is called "federalizing". Its that act of tainting everything with federal dollars so the fed can dictate actions.
If its costs more to fly, that costs must be reflected out to the market place. As the price goes up, people fly less or find other ways to travel. The subsidies do not help keep costs down, they create artificial vistas in the market landscape that don't allow the market to settle on its own.
Amtrak should not be subsidized. The problem is the gov regulations are so oppressive and restrictive on trains that they need the subsidies to overcome the massive restrictions. For example its IMPOSSIBLE to put high speed rail in the US. The US FTA is so draconian that no off the shelf trains and track can be used in the US even though these systems have been proven safe in Japan and Europe for decades.
The reason China is doing better is because it GOT OUT OF THE WAY of the market place. They are building a nuke reactor a year and a coal plant a month. We are strangled by our government.
This will make the 'death enforcement law' ripoff look like a walk in the park, share this everywhere you can!
Email, snail mail, from the street corner and from the roof tops, this is the death of the republic and they mean to shove it through the back door any way they can!
How about having the useless nations depart our shores for a location more amenable to their shenanigans. Cuba, Syria, Iran or even Afghanistan sound like great locations. Personally, I wish congress would force the US to withdraw from that den of thieves. Better yet, defund it.
To many people are living in and want to go back to the 20th Century. China, Russia, Spain, France, Germany, Japan are racing by us. Their high speed trains are traveling between 150 and 250 miles per hour. They are built and operated by the government. Why? Because private enterprise cannot afford to build the system and they will not get a decent return on their money. They don't have the capital to do so.
Yeah… the comment that really got me was "During these increasingly tough economic times, taxpayers do not need to be additionally burdened by paying for turn-down service and pre-paid movies."
You could extend that flawed logic to say " During these increasingly tough economic times, taxpayers in MD who don't own or drive a car should not have to pay for highways in Congressman Thornbury's dustbowl district in Texas, we'll just let the people of the 13th (650,000 people with a median annual income of $34,000) pay for their own bridges, highways, and air service."
That'd be Un-American. We are all in this together. My wife and I pay for your texas roads congressman, your folks can chip in for my rail service. Fair enough.
No way!! The taxpayer is subsidizing a government controlled 'business'?! Say it isn't so.
I like it! Ship them all out. What progress have we made with them here? NONE! I like your plan. Off they go!
Yep you're right. Obama/Pelosi/Reid made sure of that, those marxists. Can't wait for their Trials for Abuse of Power, and High Crimes!
Can you imagine the hissy-fit Bloomberg would throw. He needs the money they spend to help finance his little Progressive fiefdom. And, I'm certain he profits personally, too.
Boggy69,
For most of a year I took the Train DC to NYC almoist weekly. The NE corridor is the ONLY part of Amtrak to break even, might actually make small profits.
But to answer your questions YES I would get rid of any of those "public" services that were as unused as Amtrak.
Fire, Police, Pblic Bus and light rail is MUNICIPAL and the local Govt typically manages it pretty well (and that is the CORRECT level of Govt.).
Interstates are heavily used, and taxed, and should continue to be jointly managed by the Feds and States I guess. Airports are not nationalized either, they tend to be local govt. groups that manage them as well.
Amtrak shold ONLY service those routes that PAY FOR THEMSELVES.
Bust it up into a bubch of small regional carriers or commuter rails, but if there are NO CUSTOMERS it should not be subsidized.
And no I do not care which party came up with the stupid idea. It is wrong. Kill it and save a bundle of taxes.
PS – I did not thumb you down.
WRONG!
Because they have CUSTOMER DEMAND!
and because they are naturally MORE SOCIALIST!
Reminder – The Govt only has capital when they TAKE it from workers and companies…
Thats because they have exclusive use of the track. Just try to drive your car on a RR track, see how far you'd get.
take the A train, sleep at your own risk
Is this phone call any different than today's news?
Here's some RACISM for you:
Democrats Gutierrez,Il., Menendez (D)NJ,& Valazquez(D)of New York,storming into the White House today putting the pressure on for AMNESTY!
To me that is RACISM! White people, Asians and others of other races and Nationalities get "By-passed!" for SPANISH ONLY? I don't think so.
WHO REPRESENTS NON-SPANISH PEOPLE in the U.S. anymore? and who is enforcing our Federal Laws under the Constitution?
THE AMNESTY OBSESSION OF THE DEMOCRATS:
1- This is Racism! Why are white, asian, & other Races cast aside?
There are Millions of Asians, white and other races who have have had their Applications IN for Citizenship for years! Now Dems are trying to By-pass them for ILLEGAL Mexicans? & Communists from Central & So. America? All latinos.
2- AMNESTY would be a drain on our Welfare Systems, created for OUR OWN AMERICAN CITIZENS IN NEED!
3- Amnesty would also be a drain on our Education System DISPLACING OUR OWN CITIZENS for ILLEGALS! It's wrong!
4- Amnesty would be a drain on our Health System. Everyone knows that ILLEGALS here in the U.S. are JAMMING up our Health Systems, displacing our US CHILDREN, and our elderly!
WHERE IS THE FAIRNESS? There is NONE! It is all Corrupt Politics. I've heard the obsession for AMNESTY FROM Democrats, Gutierrez, Menendez, and Valazquez! They are RACISTS!
They just want to pack America with Spanish Race and dis-regard the ASIAN, WHITE and other races from 40 other Countries, who have followed the LAW in applying for US CITIZENSHIP.
This is out and out RACISM! and is illegal because it is the deliberate Failure of the Obama Admin to UPHOLD their OATH of Office!
which means enforcing our "Fed Immig Law," and cleaning out America by upholding Fed Immig Law! by deporting these 20 Mil ILLEGALS that are ruining our Country. We need to take the BURDEN off of we US Citizens, and our Health, Ed, and Welfare Systems. Also our brave returning Soldiers are returning from war, and could use those jobs!
Trains can be profitable. Its the gov regulations and restrictions that limit train profits. The FTA is notorious for shutting down high speed rail projects in the US.
Add me to the list
Blind squirrel
Wait–we're STILL subsidizing the coach seats, so WHY subsidize any of this, other than to maintain union jobs?
I like to ride the choo-choo as much as the next guy, but damn! How stupid can a group of 535 people be? And bear in mind these are supposed to be our best and brightest…please!
Long distance service is non-competitive anyway until the companies whose lines Amtrak uses double-track their segments, eliminating the need for long siding stops while trains pass in the opposite direction (as of now, only the BNSF mainline coming out of San Bernadino along I-40 has been double-tracked, not for any passenger rail concerns of course, but to speed up freight shipments. So a growing economy that would justify double-tracking other main lines for freight would actually have a side benefit of cutting time of Amtrak runs and making the service more cost-effective compared to bus runs or even short-distance air travel).
The Government can't run anything including Homeland Security, Shit I wouldn't trust them to plunge my toilet
Don't stop there. Get the bus riders to pay for all the costs of driving around town empty.
Just wait til the enviro wackos get involved in the high speed rail locations. They are already protesting a SOLAR ENERGY FARM in the middle of the dessert because it would harm the ecosystem there.
Think they'll just step back as thousands of miles of track are ripped up and rerouted to handle 250 mph turns? "But but what if a beaver is on the TRACKS?????" "You can't build through this howling screech owl preserve!" "Think of the wind disrupting the dandelions as the trains speed past!"
Also, the BIG problem with Amtrak is that it costs MORE than flying, takes longer than driving (on non-over night trips), and they stop at every pissant little town along the way.
A station in your disrict a'la Robert Byrd?
damn it…we need a speling check here!!…I'll start
HELLSCARE…demonCRAPs…rePUBICans…and finallee gubmint….
if the same people that are runnin' AMTRAK were to go find other work they would not be able to pick up trash along a highway…without subsidizing the rail roads would the passenger line disappear??? who would know??? who would miss it??? if subsidies went away would the rail road follow???? or would prices rise…
http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=environmentalist...
—
Environmentalists protest high-speed rail
Staff, The Examiner
2007-10-24 15:25:00.0
Current rank: Not ranked
SAN FRANCISCO –
The plan to have high-speed rail service the Bay Area through the Pacheco Pass faces opposition from a coalition of enviromental organizations. The coalition will hold a news conference at 9 a.m. to protest the recommendation from the Metropolitan Transportation Commission that high-speed rail should connect to the Central Valley through Pacheco Pass, which is near Gilroy and Hollister.
Shortly after the protest, the Metropolitan Transportation Commission will meet to discuss potential comments from the committee to the High-Speed Rail Authority on a draft report of enviromental impact of bringing the trains to the Bay Area.
—
Just look at the two to one payout formula.
It SCREAMS unsustainable!
This will be the biggest scam in the history of the republic and it WILL BE the 'October surprise".
CASH4GOLD…the customers pay for rail maintenance…if you drive you pay for road maintenance…clear???
Like Fat Fannie, and Bloated Freddie, AMTRAK is just another government black hole that's shovel ready for filling.
high speed rail…the american driver will never go there…BART was supposed to cure the commuter problem…hahahahahahahahahahaha…here's an idee…lets have flying cars!!! huh?? whaaa?? oh thank you nurse this medicine is tasty…bye now…….
1st of all, the amtrak bedrooms really are not all that nice. If they are going to charge more they need an upgrade.
"The reason China is doing better is because it GOT OUT OF THE WAY of the market place." ……….
You are not well informed or insane. You realize your talking about Communist china right? Yea they let some things go but its still a centrally planed and manipulated economy.
china rail (majority state owned) has like 10,000 engineers working on bringing high speed rail to the world. The US needs to compete. We are arguing while they are doing it.
Texas would be happy to pay for its own roads. It would save us money. Texas is a “donor” state, which means we pay far more fuel taxes into the federal highway trust fund than we ever get back. Maryland is a “donor” state as well, but your rate of return is much higher. That means us hard working Texans are already showering you Marylanders (who happen to have a much higher median household income) with cash to pay for your transportation programs. We’re already subsidizing Maryland’s roads and bridges. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10780.pdf We just want you to get your hand out of the honey pot and pay for your own turndown service. You’d be better suited with having Texas subsidize more of your education system. It seems to have failed you.
Only problem with Buffet is this Cowboy. Buffett and Gates bought Burlington Northern last year with the promise of the Taxpayer picking up the tab to build a loop around Chicago to unsnarl the freight going thru the city. Old Warren definitely knows where to put his campaign contributions. Go to; http://www.muckety.com and type in Buffett and Burlington Northern Railroad and read all the players involved in using our tax dollars.
Missy, thanks for the independent living news site. I knew that George Miller's committee had been holding hearing on this but hadn't seen the actual proposal. Argentina just pulled this stunt on their population. Can anyone say "Banana Republic" if this isn't stopped.
You just made a very good case for getting rid of railroad passenger service. You're correct, it doesn't make money, never has and never will. Everytime I hear some politician start talking about fast trains and light rails in the cities, I see one more huge jobs program that solves no transportation problem. There is a reason that trolleys lost to buses and auto and this won't change unless everyone is willing to move back into densely packed cities. This is the green dream, but the public is not going to tolerate it much longer.
Yup- and they all lose money hand over fist.
"Because private enterprise cannot afford to build the system and they will not get a decent return on their money."
The definition of something that shouldn't be done.
And most highways are state-funded, using revenues from…gasoline taxes.
Arbutus Joe pegged you correctly. You are one of the moralizing do-gooders that believes in central planning. In spite of all evidence to the contrary in countries such as the old Soviet Union , Eastern Europe and China, you refuse to look at the realities of human existence. And no, we don't need your elite education to see what works and doesn't, China has a few very wealthy people in the coastal cities and the interior of the country is poverty stricken and yet you want to emulate that system.
P.S. I'm pretty sure that you won't take the time to think critically and reverse your opinions, but we are more than happy to help with your ignorance. Stupid is permanent.
Somewhere in economics you may have run across the fact that "we" the 'Taxpayer", the end user, are paying for the roads the same as we are paying for the track upkeep. If the auto companies paid for road upkeep, by necessity, it would be passed along to you and me and all our neigbors.
Yep, Buffet is a political capitalist – he invests in politics and gets rich.
Notice that he wants us the taxpayers to spend billions also wiring the prairie so he can build windmills and make a profit selling energy to us. Nice how that works.
Perhaps the good folks could charge you a price for your foodstuff and cotton, that makes your clothing, a high enough price to put their salaries at $150,000.00+ to afford to build their own railroads with sleeper cars and then everything would be equal. You say we are all in this together and then you proceed to denigrate (650,000 people with a median income of $34,000) as if what job you ride your train to work in is somehow more important to society than what these people do. No I don't live in Texas, but your elitist attitude turns my stomach.
Have you visited China or Russia? Me thinks you are living in a socialist utopia that never has and never will exist.
Your statement is a non sequitor.
It may be more appropriate to ask about trucking, busing, taxi, etc.
But if you had: I would ask you from whence came the $ to pay for track maintenance.
I would also add that the license fees of cars, trucks, et al were to cover these highway expenses.
Yes.
You are right.
Anschutz was the better example.
Yes.
I am not a fan of Buffett.
He is not the kindly old Grandpa type personna that he portrays. Buffett is a Predator Competitor. Granted, he makes money for his partners. Sometimes with taxpayer expensed subsidies. he knows how to cover his bets.
Right; for his "Partnership for a New Economy for America" His Pro-Amnesty (not too racist) coalition. They want to give Illegal's Amnesty PLUS ObamaCare, from what I hear. Look up this Partnership. This is truly his feifdom, as you said.
Oh yes I agree, he loves the U.N. money etc. He's also busy with his beloved Mo$que! and his muslim friends and allies! He and all of the Democrat officials that are ruining NYC should be thrown out of Office!
Hurry before Bloomberg's "Partnership coalition" jams Amnesty through in NYC! and further destroys NYC which is already rife with homelessness, Overcrowding with Illegals, Crime and Disease!
Mayors are supposed to keep the City Safe, low crime, LEGAL citizens, and not over-crowded. Bloomberg gets an "F" in job performance,imo, and an "A" in corruption and worsening the quality of life in NYC.
Then we should never have gone to the moon. We should not have the government invest in finding cures for cancer. Your are right it is definitely socialist to think of everyone paying taxes to support railroads, roads, interstates, etc. Let's make everything very simple. If you use it, you pay for it. No matter what your income. Also, when you reach what you have paid into "Social Security" you can no longer take anymore out. That would end payments to almost everyone over 70 right now. Most have taken out way more than they ever paid in. Get those loafers off the public dole! Stop hring air traffic controllers with government money. If the airlines want to fly planes then those who fly should pay for it. How far do you want to go? if you are the only house on your block, then you wil pay for the road. No money — so sorry.
If they want to make trains a viable transport option, I can make it happen:
Gambling Trains!
Another government-run monopoly that has to stop, but the GOP has never stopped it. The Tea Parties should block all funding for all government-run monopolies that are now milksops sucking us dry.
The seats being picked up in this election cycle are seats mainly being won by candidates who embrace the Tea Parties. If they vote as a monolithic bloc they can force legislation to their liking as neither the Republicans or the Democrats will have enough votes to pass the policies they really want.
We can end AMTRAK. We can end NASA. We can end the Post Office. We can end the Social Security Ponzi scheme. We can end the failure of public education.
It's really too bad that Amtrak is such a losing commodity. Riding by rail has a bit of nostalgia and an old America feel to it. I've done the "Empire Builder" trip and the "Cascades" trip before. The amenities are bare-bones if you aren't staying in a sleeper, and I could never afford it. It's a neat way to see the country, to get a feel for what it might have been like, although "back in the day" traveling by train was luxurious and exciting.
That said, I think if Amtrak can not keep it's feet above the water without massive taxpayer support, than it's time to quit cold turkey. There simply isn't enough money in the coffers to continue this. If I want to treat my family to a train ride, it'll have to be in Canada (I've ALWAYS wanted to ride Canadian Rail system from coast to coast anyway).
Buffet is also making electric cars in China!….
I wonder what the stats are on accidents riding on trains vs accidents flying in airplanes?Not only can they not run a railroad as a private enterprise, it is unsafe too.
I have a blueprint plan of a septic system from my county showing the s**t going UPHILL!, so I have to agree with you…
If you wish to stop paying road taxes, then have fun finding a way to get food delivered to your table.(unless you have a huge garden,chickens and a cow, then disregard this comment)
Soylent Green is People!
Had enough?
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