Apparently there are no principled grownups left among the leaders of the Democratic Party.
Today, via Ben Smith and TPM, we get to hear Howard Dean, who once stood for some decent principles, tell us that those who want to build a Muslim center in New York City should be looking for a "compromise" that would place the center somewhere else.
The preferred location, I gather, would be somewhere that didn’t function as a litmus test for whether a politician has a genuinely principled adherence to the US Constitution. After all, it’s awkward when our leaders must prove they actually understand why the Founders found religious intolerance so odious and dangerous to the concept of a free people that it was the first behavior they explicitly banned from American government.
How sad that we’ve lost that wisdom.
It’s predictable that morally depraved right wing zealots and opportunists like Palin and Gingrich would attempt to exploit America’s ignorance of its own history, exacerbate anti-Muslim intolerance and risk further religious wars. It’s predictable they would then use that as a wedge to split Democrats and Americans everywhere into those who actually believe in religious freedom and those who only pretend or don’t get it.
But it is disheartening to find that so many prominent Democrats fall for this evil gimmick and then wonder why their once loyal supporters hold them in such contempt and are ready to abandon them and start over.
Has no one thought through where this leads? As I understand the logic of the principle Howard Dean and Harry Reid are embracing from their right-wing tormentors, European Jews should have been more sensitive to the hurt feelings of post-World War I Germans and been more willing to compromise about where they should live.
I suppose the same principle would apply to Native Americans who once lived on lands coveted by White Men and refused to go "somewhere else" willingly. And what about the African Americans who rudely insisted on sitting at lunch counters and in the front of buses, and in public school rooms, offending the hallowed sensibilities of so many whites in their communities?
Tell me how this ends, Howard.
More from Glenn Greenwald
Update: Sam Stein at HuffPo has a response from Dean:
The former Governor of Vermont told the Huffington Post that he "stood by" the remarks he had made earlier in the day on WABC radio in which he called the mosque plan "a real affront to people who lost their lives [on 9/11]." But in a clarification of sorts, he stressed that he would not have a problem if the proposed Islamic cultural center ultimately ended up being built in the current location.
"It won’t upset me," Dean said, "except I think it is a missed opportunity to show some flexibility… I don’t believe all this nonsense the right wing is putting out about radicals and all that stuff. I take the congregation at its word that it is a moderate congregation trying to heal the wounds of 9/11. But the best way to heal the wounds is not to have a court battle, but to sit down and try to work things out."





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About The Seminal
Can we start calling this the “sensitive douche-bag” coalition? What the hell is Gov Dean thinking?
He is probably getting ready to run for office some time in the near future.
It’s absolutely shameful.
With friends like these…..
Oh Dear, Dean sold us down the river too.
Effing Dem Retards.
LeSigh, thanks SC.
Rcc’d, always.
Battered wife syndrome or Stockholm syndrome? Opinions differ.
I assume Dean and Reid are calling for the Israelis to exhibit analogous respect to the Palestinans?
Right?
There seem to be unconsolable sensitivities on all sides there.
I think FDL is overreacting on this one.
Dean is a strong progressive, it’d be stupid to turn on him for something as tiny as this.
Who is he giving cover to, and why?
This doesn’t sound like the Howard Dean I know and support.
I’ve left a message on his FB page, you can too.
“Tiny” like the First Amendment?
You are familiar with Father Niemuoller’s creed, right?
So… Are we only suppose to go where we are wanted now?
Dang, I’m an Atheist living in the US… where the heck am I suppose to go?
Building a community center about two and a half blocks away is insensitive?
Their own community board voted on this and approved it… do we now just toss out that fact or should we just ignore it because it could hurt someone’s feelings? But I forgot… Facts stopped being important in the US awhile ago.
Come on Reid and Dean, get a backbone and stand up for something. How hard is it to stand up for the Bill of Rights?
Sigh.. And I still have to vote for Reid to keep Crazy Angle out of office.
To be clear, I don’t speak for fdl. Any over-reaction is mine.
Dear Dr. Dean,
How many feet and inches does a community center for muslims in NYC have to be from the former WTC site in order to be allowed? And do you think the Islamic prayer space inside the Pentagon needs to be shut down immediately?
LOL How is that 50 state strategy working? Gonna blame it all on Rahm and Chuckie Schumer? The whole party is bought and paid for just like the Republicans
Hey, we liked native American’s too. We just insisted that we’d like them much more – and for their own good (’cause wouldn’t WE know what’s best for others) if they’d just move a little further away from where we are or want to be.
Not excusing the latest pants-pisser, just reminding us that the historical record is rife with this strain of douche-baggery.
sigh.
Nation of laws – says who?
Dean isn’t saying they shouldn’t be allowed to build there, he’s saying that he doesn’t think its wise for them to build it there. It’s the same as what Obama said. On the face, its not that offensive a statement IMO.
The only difference is that when Obama says it, its just another in an extremely lost list of triangulations and conciliations.
What if they found a site one more block away?
One block over and four blocks down then it would be fine with me.
Actually, I have very grave reservations anywhere in Manhattan.
Why not anywhere in New York State? Let’s add Virginia and Pennsylvania as well. This is effing ridiculous. STFU Howard Dean. Never thought he would need a spinal transplant. The only reason I can see him doing this is to give cover for the weak “Dems” who are cowering on this “issue”.
So Howard Dean, another one of my idols, finally develops feet of clay. Sigh.
To paraphrase TDS a couple of nights ago. It’s legal for the R.C.s to build a church next to a playground, but is it wise? Is it too soon?
I would draw a circle around the Ground Zero site with a radius equal to the distance a moose could travel in five days. No mosque in that circle.
I’m not saying they don’t have the right to build it in that circle, only that it would inappropriate. And a compromise should be worked out.
Do you live in Manhattan? Have you ever visited the WTC site? Have you ever bought clothes at the former Burlington Coat Factory?
nah,just being pragmatic methinks,i still love em…he really gave it to Lieberputz the other day
A) I fail to see why amd
B) IT. ISN’T. A. F*CKING. MOSQUE!
Just make sure that Sarah doesn’t shoot the moose from a helicopter before the 5 days are up.
Also, do you agree with TDS as I represented in 22?
This is very interesting. This takes the political wind out of the issue for sure. Reid’s position helped but Reid could have had some reservations about the wisdom of Bloomberg’s position. Howard Dean has essentially punked them. Watch for a rightwing 180-turn on this issue accusing Howard Dean of being intolerant. I think that both Reid and Dean know that with Bloomberg’s assertion that it is a local issue that it is a done deal. The project will go forward regardless.
And the GOP just lost their muslim supporters, which is like losing Cuban supporters over the immigration issue.
Uh, you mean Catholic church, right?
ROTFLMAO
Pragmatic about what? This is a manufactured problem. All he’s doing is making it worse.
R.C.=Roman Catholic.
Sorry, missed that.
practical,to not fight the noise machine,he should have just said nothing imo
Hoping it will go forward. ‘Compromising’ now would be very bad for oh-so-many important principles that the U.S. was supposed to stand for.
Saying nothing would have been a VAST improvement.
You know those Mooslims. One minute, they’re recreating themselves; next thing you know, they’re praying.
So what’s your A to the Q posed by TDS? Should R.C.s build churches next to playgrounds? Or is it too soon?
Exactly.
no principled grownups”
?????
This is not a black and white issue except as to the right to build anywhere. Not sure how you become so certain as to others sensitivities being of less worth than your own. This should be a minor dispute among New Yorkers, but it has become a question asked of all of us. Anyone that ever attended a zoning board meeting knows that Church relocations get the same kind of opposition – but without the hate, or at least contempt, for those opposing that seems to be in the air.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has gotten by the zoning – they can build. You can’t force those that wish it was a few blocks further away to feel happy, and the I’m right/you are wrong and you have bad motives and you are intolerant and you hate (I am surprised some atheist did not say “you are a bad Christian and do not really believe in Christ”) does not get any awards for motivation detection at a distance.
An interesting aside is the fact that Sufism is a gentle loving version of Islam – and Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a Sufi. Granted his reaching out to all means reaching out to the violent, jihad at a drop of a word parts of Islam, as well as to other religions.
Despite Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf’s niceness, the source of money for this is hidden, and it was sold – in at least some of the money collecting – as a slap in the face of the West(per cable news talking heads). Seems reasonable for some in the West to not like that. In that context it seems hard to fault Dr Dean.
BHO,should have kept quiet too…he could have said,he didnt have a deep feeling one way or the other ,but reading the Constituion sez,they have the right.
There are prayer rooms in most YMCAs yet we don’t call them churches, there is a chapel in virtually every hospital in the United States but nobody would whine if one of those went up on that site. The occupants of that building would have gone unnoticed if instead of an Islamic oriented community center, the site had been bought by people selling sex toys. THIS IS BIGOTRY AND INTOLERANCE. Period!
or boys lockerooms?
I’m not sure that diddling thing has run its course. So, yes it’s too soon.
Disagree entirely with that.
It’s called leadership. Principles include First Amendment, property rights, local control. If the prez won’t mount the bully pulpit on those critcal issues, what’s the point of having a bully pulpit?
Our office moron has her panties in a knot over the “Ground Zero Mosque” to the point that I had to snap at her. The next day her cube was adorned with her certificate of membership in the Tea Party. I’ve gotten to the point where I just want to hit anyone who even brings up the subject in the snot locker with a brick.
All of the New York zoning and building regulators have approved the development. The neighbors don’t mind. And the rest of the world outside Fox has figured out it is driven by Liz Cheney’s partner in crime, who happens to be one of many 9-11 widows and who definitely does not speak for all of them. And Ted Olson called bullshit on the issue.
The only compromise so far is the development might be called Park51 instead of Cordoba House.
Nothing more to see here.
Presumably, then, Howard would ban Christian churches near the site of Timonthy McVeigh’s bombing in Oklahoma—as Greg Palast wonders.
well ,this issue as you said is manufactured,i wouldnt take the bait,the other issues he has missed with the bully pulpit,are too numerous to type tonite
Too bad the voting down of health care for the 9-11 workers didn’t get this kind of press. That was a true lack of respect for the victims and families.
Well, perhaps you should inform some R.C. official (can’t find a link right away, but I’ll be back on ya) who has volunteered to mediate a Muslim property rights & religious issue. Completely disgusting.
And when was child abuse ‘diddling’ in your words?
And when has where R.C. churches being built become such a national hysteria?
eggsactly!
Is there a wall you can hang a prayer rug on in the office?
No, Howard Dean would be asking Christian churches to look for a compromise and consider placing them somewhere else. And he would be asking that of a Unitarian.
Ya got that right. Still, no reason not to call O out EVERY time he duz it.
forgive me ,but the RCC is one of the most corrupt,warmongering anti spiritual instituions in the world(imo) Vatican Bank etc
You’ve got that one right.
They didn’t bomb the Trade Center. /s
he and the wife,all the weird photo ops ,creep me out already
we really dont know who hatched the plan
Point taken.
they are about to blow the whole David Kelly suicide case wide open
Everyone now dances to Fox News. Whose entire creation this “controversy” is.
The R.C.s did systematically sexually abuse boys and hid it. Don’t know how many R.C. victims there were (many of whom are still alive but have suffered for decades on account of the abuse) but wouldn’t be a bit surprised if they and their families numbered more than the 9/11 victims & their families.
Link?
I’ll come back in a few days when this damned un-American hysteria is over. I can’t watch the news anymore because of it, now I can’t read any of my favorite blogs. Calling this community center a “mosque” only allows the right wingers to frame the debate AND it’s being done by people who have on many other occasions wondered why they always seem to be ABLE to frame the debate.
Reid, Dean and someone nobody ever heard of from Florida:
“Separate but equal. What Palin said!”
I’m not so sure. I think that was the intent. But it makes the Barry and the Ds look weak.
How so? What are you seeing?
I might understand more had the Nation of Islam attacked us, but it DIDN’T!
I liked Keith Olbermann’s point last night that the crazy christian Ted Kazinski attacked the OK federal buildings. There are several christian churches all around that site. Nobody acts like christians bombed the OK buildings.
The muslim prayer center existed in its current location BEFORE the WTC was there! It’s been open ever since. This is a crass political ploy by a desperate republican party. Leave the decision to the people who live there and NYC’s land use laws!
And, of course, there already is a mosque in the neighborhood, that no one complained about before or since.
wonder how many suicides,and otherwise ruined lives were left in the wake,while the ahem”fathers” went to San Remo,or Sienna etc
This is how Republicans were strategerizin’ back in 2006:
This entire bullshit episode is just another version of “my children singing the Star Spangled Banner in Muslim.” That so-called “leaders” are kowtowing to these TFM’s makes me want to hurl.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1303674/Dr-David-Kellys-cousin-claims-did-commit-suicide.html
Thank you for the reminder! See how easy it is to get caught up in the bad info? It’s NOT a mosque! I knew that, and still veered off into church crap. I’m not paying attention to it anymore either.
That has been there since before the World Trade Center was.
This.
http://beyondrace.com/images/stories/the-scream.jpeg
It’s not a matter of others’ sensitivities being worth less, it’s about those feelings being unwarranted and unfair.
By even questioning the wisdom of having a muslim building there, one is questioning, and indicting the entire muslim faith for involvement in 9/11. That’s just plain wrong.
Oh, I agree 100%. I was in the seminary as a young boy. The stories I could tell.
From your link
and then there is the death of Matt Simmons.
He complained loudly and with some knowledge about British Petroleum.
According to Sam Stein:
Dean Stands By Mosque Remarks, Charges Liberal Critics With Being Inflexible
Might not be the same stance on the issue as Obama but Howard shows that he also enjoys a good game of punch the hippie.
he also had no HAND strength do to an arthritic type illness…this was all ginned up
Aha. See your point.
ratty!…..sad that
But no one has suggested since that it should be removed.
yes,read about him…being outspoken is teh dangerous
Sadly! How’s horsie? Scratch behind the ears to Bazzie.
I’ve always suspected assassination. Just waiting, though not hopeful, for further evidence.
No overreacting on your part. We either have a constitution. I am reminded of that again and again by the Tea Party. I much dislike that Obama has to walk bAck his defense of freedom of religion and that Dean and Reid take the point of view they do.
horsey “draining”,skin slowly being replaced,aw he is a trooper…i told him today,next moth we are going for a nice long ride…tee hee…scrithies back to Bob,Baz and his companion are right here
Religious freedom, particularly the right not to belong to any established religion, didn’t legally exist in Massachussetts until much after the Constitution had been ratified; and Connecticut had its own established religion until 1833.
Some of still remember that listening to Bible passages and reciting the Lord’s Prayer was de facto compulsory in our public schools.
Amen.
Forwarded your link to my friend who lives in Houston and who informed me about his death. Will try to remember to let you know if she gets back to me.
didja see this?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/political-bookworm/2010/08/critics_deride_blairs_donation.html
Obama didn’t HAVE to walk it back, he simply wasn’t comfortable defending the Constitution… Heaven forbid a president should be required to do THAT.
Never liked that Dean guy. Shifty. This really is a litmus test, ie, which politicians use their time to talk about stupid bullshit, and which use it to talk about real issues.
Dean obv falls into the stupid bullshit camp. Who’s next?
Wouldn’t it be something if you or I ran our own company, and it began doing really well so we thought about expanding. And market research shows Canada to be a prime market for our product/service.
So we propose to build a new store somewhere in Canada. And all the Canadian citizens come out and demand it not be built there. That no AMERICAN building can be built there, because it was America that tortured one of our citizens who turned out to be completely innocent.
And seeing an American building there everyday is just like a stick in our eye, saying you Americans can torture and do anything you want to us. It shows a lack of respect. Maybe an American citizen or company has a right to build a building up here, but they just shouldn’t do it because it’s unwise.
Yeah, that sounds fair.
cant look at him,or listen to him anymore,makes me heave
What? do you suppose all the people who build RC churches are angelic or maybe some are criminal? I never thought to ask.
Guilt gilt.
good,i hope it eats him and Colon Powell alive
you only have one life to lead..mass murderers for $$$$
Is this only a Muslim issue, or can other groups be considered?
I noticed the same thing on immigration. It seem to be only an Hispanic issue. No other groups need to be considered?
Yeah, really.
I mean where in the hell would those stupid DFH’s get a crazy idea like that?
Thank you, Teddy.
How eloquent. You speak for me.
I think there may be a simple explanation. Obama was acting as the law professor when he made his first remarks. Then someone showed him a poll saying 75% of Americans didn’t want the “facility” in that location. And he shit a brick — and ran out the next day to “clarify.”
Former prez of SUNY-New Paltz (Princeton BS, Harvard PhD), now moved to greener pastures, was interviewed by Dean for prez of UVM. Did not come away with a favorable impression of Dean. Petty control freak (deliberately kept him waiting, for example) is the shortest description I can relate from what he told me.
He didn’t walk back his of the Constitution.
really……………shit,who is left???????
Me too.
I reached that point in about mid ‘09.
There is no LEFT in the U.S. anymore.
Thanks for the link. I put it in an update.
yes we gave him time,optimism,money and energy…..epic fail
i wish it wasnt called the left…how about “the sane”
You mean he acted like so many doctors do?
BINGO!!!!
Maybe Dr. Dean wants Obama to choose him for his running mate when Obama turns Republican for 2012.
Good to hear.
Thanks for the link. That smelled from minute one and a fish rots from the head down.
Hi rf, Bob.
IIRC parochial schools are on RC property, next to RC churches.
agreed.
hey SD
how are all the beautiful babes…
80 year old farmer about to kill his cat,for some reason she keeps peeing on his LAZY BOY…i dont know what to do,happens about every 2 weeks!
You’re welcome.
It’s so irritating that Dean states that he would not have a problem with it and admits supporters of Cordoba House have the Constitution on their side and THEN characterizes those supporters as inflexible.
WTF? I guess the founders should have titled the Constitution, “Suggestions for things that would be nice if politically convenient but certainly not binding so feel free to disregard if you prefer.”
hahahahaha
even on a bad day,ya make me laugh…….g
Tigers are fine after a traumatic, for them, weekend. Plumber on Friday, waterbed disaster overnight Sat/Sun then replace mattress Mon.
I don’t know of anything that can be done for that. He might try some of the commercial sprays. I’ll look on the web tomorrow to see if I can find something natural.
Frankly, I don’t see being overly sensitive for any religious group. They’re all a bunch of controlling hypocrites. I don’t think they would be overly sensitive to my or your needs. Do you?
When you’re in a hole …
re Dean
Attributed to A Lincoln
Howdy howdy howdy.
Got a beautiful tiger who has taken a liking to stalking my outdoor critters (mostly birds but even chasing squirrels). I keep running him off but it’s a losing battle. He’s completely fearless, even when I bang pots and pans he takes his time and glances over his shoulder like I’m a complete idiot… demonstrating that he is also a pretty good judge of people.
Funny now, but Lincoln had to sic Grant and Sherman after some rebs who didn’t interpret the Constitution as applying to them.
Actually from a biblical proverb.
Yes. (Sorry, I missed this.)
Right on! Anybody who is screaming “this offends me” regarding the community center (stop calling it a mosque now!) and is NOT screaming equally as loud or louder on the issue of the congress not helping the 9-11 responders, is a god-damned hypocrite who doesn’t have the right to say anything!
S/he knows yer all bark and no bite. *g*
It’s not a Q of being sensitive to Islam or any other religion. It’s a Q of tolerance. And if you are not tolerant of hypocrites, then who of us is never going to be a victim?
Having typed that, I’ll add that one of the groups most vilified (other than teh gay) is atheists. Being one, I find it more comfortable to just pass. Not interested enough in the issue to make a to-do out of it.
tru dat
i love that quote
silence is golden
I wonder if Dean would consider a Muslim community center “a real affront to people who lost their lives [on 9/11].”
thank you
tis a pity he loves her
Please don’t kill the cat. Try dousing the Lazy Boy in lemon juice where she peed and she if that doesn’t keep her away.
Long-haired calico, absolutely gorgeous. If I had a camera I’d try to get a pic. Wish it would stop terrorizing my outdoor kids, though.
organized religion causing pain anguish and death for thousands of years
I’m not an atheist. I’m hoping for a God in my image.
The cat is just trying to tell him a Lazy Boy is so bourgeois.
i will not let him,it is his cat…i put a wood box on it when he is not sitting in it…he is old and ornery
Dear Howard,
Fuck you.
Take me off your fucking DFA list, too.
Very truly yours…
had one that did that…he now lives in my garage happily
i tired…love yall gnite
I’m the author of the sound bite that religion has killed more peeps than it has saved. But I still won’t defend those who would demagogue religion.
g’nite sadly, sweet dreams
When was the last time the Left blew a dog whistle and the Right fell over themselves to “get in line”?
Huh?
But the wingnuttery? Jazus. WTF? Do they have Democratic children held in basements across the country? What the hell?
Namaste, sadly
Me too.
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.
Namaste
Came late. I never was a Dean fan. He lied about the public option during the healthcare debate saying it was single payer, and that he was for the PO, but also that he was for a multi-payer system. He was all over the place. He was for Obamacare, then against it, then for it again. The guy has had a year and a half to be an independent progressive spokesman since Obama unceremoniously dumped as head of the DNC but let’s face it he hasn’t been. So really why should we be surprised that he opts for bigotry on the mosque issue? It is long past time to stick a fork in Dean. As a progressive, he’s done.
Agree but still very disappointed. Incredible to witness so many craven pols lining up to make some weird kind of hay out of Murdoch’s ginned up crap. With them “pulling out” of Iraq, it makes me wonder if they’re setting the stage to upset & anger Muslim extremists & goad or gin up an attack of some kind… Say from Iran… and hey presto! What a great excuse for another war. Who better at this point than Dean to slither out from his rock & say junky bs like this?? Seems staged to me. More kabuki. Really the pits.
Too bad about Dean.
I thought highly enough about him for this to be a major disappointment.
And those nine trouble-making black students in Little Rock should have stayed home in 1957. I mean, desegregation was a controversial issue and so many people were against it that they had to be protected by the freaking Army, so under Spineless Dem Logic, they should have respected the feelings of the ravening bigot horde and not rocked the boat.
Good call, dickhead.
Pleeeeeease, I want at least one talking hairpiece on TV to make this bloody obvious parallel and call these pandering SOBs out on it.
The radio host, in asking Howard Dean about this “issue,” used the phrase “mosque at Ground Zero,” which unfortunately Howard Dean then repeated in his answer.
There is not going to be a mosque AT Ground Zero!!
Why Gov. Dean didn’t slap down this lying right-wing talking point the moment he heard it is anyone’s guess. Just as why he’d then repeat it in his response.
There is not going to be a mosque AT Ground Zero!!
This is actually similar to the right-wing conniption fit over holding terrorist trials in New York City, presumably with the jury drawn from a jury pool of New York City residents. How more appropriate can one get?
And the idea that New Yorkers couldn’t handle the terrorist trials is just as ridiculous as the idea that multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious New York City can’t handle a Muslim cultural center blocks away from Ground Zero, within spitting distance of a long-established mosque also located blocks away from Ground Zero, a Muslim cultural center to be headed by a Sufi who helped the Bush administration after the 9/11 attacks with the Bush administration’s attempt at outreach to Muslims, a Sufi who worked with the FBI to help identify any radical al Qaeda-types, a Sufi who advocates for peace and women’s rights, a Sufi who is planning on having a swimming pool, culinary school and basketball court at this planned moderate-Muslim cultural.
And Howard Dean not only leaves unchallenged a lying right-wing talking point meant to inflame the lizard brains of conservatives, but actually repeats the talking point in his response? Incredible.
There is not going to be a mosque AT Ground Zero!!
Can we just have a gay wedding chapel there and call it a day?
Howie, I hardly knew ye…
Wow, “tiny” as this? The Founding Fathers saw religious freedom so important they put it in the First Amendment. I don’t think the group who spent a boatload of cash to buy the building and now are looking at the prospect of crazy wing-nut protesters camping out on their stoop (or worse) thinks it’s a “tiny” issue. Muslims all over America who listen to politicians tell them they should “go elsewhere” probably don’t think it’s a “tiny” issue, either. Dean is wrong, wrong, wrong. I really liked the guy. I guess politics corrupts absolutely.
~~~ModNote: Insults intended to inflame are moderated.~~~
I was one of Dean’s first online organizers.
All I can say is I know Dean is a native of New York City, not Vermont. It was his hometown getting attacked on 9/11.
I think a wacko response to an tragedy in a person’s hometown is forgivable at the end of the day.
“The Scream” wasn’t wacko. CNN set Dean up for that by messing with the settings on his mike.
This was wacko.
No, it’s not. It especially isn’t from anyone who is or has been in a position of leadership, and even more so from someone who once was progressive.
It’s not inappropriate to call this a mosque. A Mosque serves as a community center ideally. Unlike a Church that believers visit once a week, the Mosque is a place where Muslims will gather for more than just prayer.
Some Muslims will make it to the Mosque for Fajr/dawn prayers daily, others will go for the Jutba/friday prayers/sermon. Mosques frequently host classes for children and adults, dinners, fund raisers and other events.
I say this after fasting all week for Ramadan. I was raised somewhere between nothing and Episcopal. I’ve done the prayers, studied the Quran and the whole bit. I’m not really religiously inclined. I respect Islam immensely, my wife is born Muslim and I have no problem with the Park 51 project. My wife who doesn’t cover, and is still sexy despite dressing modestly by Western standards indeed gets some grief from other Muslim women.
But, this is a Muslim community fight. The Islamic tradition offers plenty of ammo to push for women’s rights and the Quran says “let there be no compulsion in religion” almost as frequently as anything else. Clearly all faithful fall short of their traditions best angels. I see this discussion as deeply disturbing, and destructive. But this country’s been on that track for quite a while and on many fronts.
Lastly, it seems to me that we’d have more people appreciative of the work/jobs/money this project will bring to the city.
Great comment.
lol – thanks :)
Well I guess now we know that defending the constitution is neither a republican and democratic issue. Both sides of this coin seem incapable of doing this. Obama with his torture and wiretapping, executive privilege, now Dean and those who have forgotten that religious tolerance was the REASON this country began. Then the Republicans on the others side who won’t even HIDE the fact that they oppose the constitution…they seem to think that the constitution has only one amendment…that being the 2nd one.
Who will put our constitution back at center stage?
Even beyond the the first amendment issue lies a bigger theme. When are Democrats going to stand up to nonsense issues being generated by the right wing and call them out? We are at the point where the truth no longer matters in our society. This is what disgusts me and why I have given up totally on Dems. There is no point in progressives supporting that party. It represents nothing. The longer we put off building true progressive representation in the government, the more things will deteriorate. Dean becoming a groveling coward is really a hard pill to swallow.
Last December, Dean said we should support the private health insurance bailout — err, the senate HCR bill — because GOP opposed it. We had to be contrary to the GOP!
Now it seems Dean no longer wants to be contrary to the right!
Indeed. It is clear now that Dean is a tool and a hack. Not worth paying any attention to him anymore. He’s sold out. Bah!
What part of their website makes it confusing that this will be a mosque?
http://www.park51.org/facilities.htm
You didn’t understand that comment?
It’s a community center with a mosque in it (like having a community center with a chapel in it), and it’s two blocks from the WTC site, not at it.
Also there was a mosque in the WTC.
Great.
Most republican politicians have gone insane.
Most Democratic politicians have gone stupid.
I am very anti-islam. No fan of christianity either, btw, but I think islam is particularly pernicious. I find myself agreeing with a lot of what the wingnuts and christian fanatics say about the religion – not the practitioners.
I rarely post on islam threads for that reason. Dis christianity and there is plenty of support. Dis islam and you’re a racist or something.
I am, however, a fan of the first amendment.
This manufactured controversy should have, could have been squelched by Obama by simply presenting the facts. I am not disappointed in him or the craven Democrats playing along with this charade, however. Only people whom I respect can disappoint me.
For some time now, Dr. Dean shows himself to be just another politician.
I am trying not to thinks of all the money I expended on his campaign. I believed, I believed.
There is no guarantee he’d be what we wanted one he got into the
White House, sad to say.
Look how he changed his tune on HC. And we don’t hear him and DFA fighting for SSN!
PS: Fuck with the first amendment, and you are fucking with my religion!
What Obama should have said, and what our elected representatives should be echoing:
“The only issue here of national significance is the principled question of the first amendment to our constitution: the freedom of American citizens to practice their religion and to build houses of worship according to their religion. From this vantage it is unequivocally the right of American Muslims to build their houses of worship where they choose in accordance with the ordinances of the respective communities.
Everything else said about this project is only of local concern for those who work and live in lower Manhattan. Whether such is held to be wise or prudent is a matter of personal opinion, and as pertains to this proposed Islamic Center only the opinion of the local residents should count. I have my own views as to the wisdom of the chosen cite, but I am not a resident of lower Manhattan. It behooves us to respect the wisdom of those residents in making their choice for what they want, or do not want, in their community.
If I, as President of the United States, were to make an issue of my own personal view of this proposed Islamic Center I would at once be confounding the principled issue and that of my opinion, and at the same time I would be denigrating the opinions of the residents of lower Manhattan. Both the freedom of religion and practice thereof and the freedom of residents to choose what they want to have in their own neighborhoods are fundamental rights in American society, and I as President have sworn to uphold and protect these rights”
The right wing can so easily seize on this issue because if one only makes the principled stance one appears to be “cowardly” for not speaking their opinion.
But one can make it abundantly clear that one has an opinion without sharing what that particular opinion is. Refraining from opining, if one shows that one is refraining, dignifies opinion without playing into the hands of those who only wish to score points by making an ass of themselves.
Sometimes I wonder if our fellow Americans are lacking the subtlety to realize that there is no such thing as not showing. Once people get over this and realize that no action in the public eye is possible without showing/revealing, one realizes that they are under no obligation to show/reveal everything and that dignity begins where we choose what to show/reveal.
Imagine where we would be if our politicians had any sense of dignity and the courage to defend such. Obama did not do any “backtracking” he simply made clear in two separate statements what should have been one: he defends the constitutional rights, which we have, and he has personal opinions as to where such is wise. If we fail to respect such we denigrate ourselves.
I really couldn’t give a rats ass about what Harry Reid or Howard Dean think about this issue. What pisses me off is when they fail to respect the opinions of that particular community in lower Mahattan. And they fail to do so by opening their big friggin mouths and spouting off about shit that isn’t any of their friggin business.The zoning board already reached it’s conclusion: and that is the place where the opinions of that community are represented.
That is a reasonable, reasoned idea.
I think one person made a very good point. There is no “specific” reason the center MUST be at that exact location. But, there ARE feelings amoung the families and others concerning that exact area.
Otherwise, the supporters are now giving license to people in the future to run a tractor over the feelings and sensitivities of other groups–be they LGBT, African Americans, Latino’s, etc. as long as the developer has the Constitutional right to bulldoze.
discussion, compromise is called for.
sorry bud, but 9/11 was an attack on the country, not just New York City. The citizens of this country have, and are entitled to, an emotional connection to that site just as all Americans had an emotional connection to Pearl Harbor.
Same as the Lincoln Memorial does not just belong to D.C.
Why you are arguing about the Constitution is beyond me. NO ONE debating this issue says the center developers do not have the RIGHT to build there. Sure, some ya hoo’s not paying attention might not know, but every official and commentator, etc. has agreed they have the right.
So, you are arguing a debate that no one else is. You won that debate, if there even was one.
The actual debate is, as Obama says, “The wisdom of building there.”
Now, you can say that if any developer has a Constitutional right to build a project that they can then run rough shod over the sensitivities and feelings of those affected by the project. But, it’s as predictable as the sun coming up that as soon as the offended group is someone you support, then the Constitutional rights will be secondary and it will be all about “respecting the sensitivities and feelings” of the group you support.
This tradeoff of rights and respect for others happens every day across the country on these kinds of projects. And usually, if not always, there is discussion and compromise and an attempt to let all parties get what they need.
That’s sane, that’s sensible. That’s community. Not getting your own way.
You can see video of the burning of my “Howard Dean for America” sign at my diary at http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/66069
If the mods decide that is too inflamatory (no pun intended) go to http://tarantulamountain.blogspot.com/2010/08/death-of-last-progressive-leader.html
Is it now okay to demand that any new Catholic churches be put to a vote before they can be built because the rampant pedophilia and the outrageous cover-up by the Pope is very offensive to most Americans?
I woulda said it like this:
“No mosque is being built. The site is two and one half blocks away from ground zero. Therefore this is a controversy entirely caused by political partisans and demagogues of hatred.
Islam is legal and the first amendment either protects it, or it does not. If it does not, it does not protectyour speech or your religion either. This cultural center can be a shining example for us all – evidence that the principles our founders enshrined in our constitution really have meaning in practice – or if we failed this test that the rule of law and our constitution itself are merely pious words to be ignored in every time of crisis.
I know that we, as a nation, will meet this test as we have so many tests in times past, because we must, because of who we are and because that is what our most sacred national document – the constitution – demands.”
That’s what I would say.
The irony of it is, that if Obama took that position and defended it strongly, he would be re-elected in a landslide. He could make the wingnuts treason to the spirit of our constitution the winning electoral issue.
Ain’t gonna happen, though.
You are very free to protest the building of any Catholic Church. I say that as a Catholic.
People have lots of rights and freedoms. Freedom of speech, religion of assembly.
Organize against the building of any Church you want. It’s your right. Lay down in front of the bull dozer if you want. Many down through history have done that with very noble results.
Organize a boycott against the construction company. That’s a time honored tactic of protest.
This is America, you have your right to say.
See my last post on the “forgotten” half of the Constitution.
You’re being played. Yahoo just reported they don’t have any money. Just a controversy to stir up people.
Who’s’ “wisdom”? The “wisdom” of the Muslim who purchased the property with intent of building a community center with a Muslim place of prayer there? He pissed on one of the major tenants and goals of prayer and religion, the quest for “wisdom”.
He implied the Muslim’s were not employing wisdom by not considering other options or stepping back to seek wisdom for other alternatives. What a slap in the face. Or was he saying that it is the mayor and city council that is not employing “wisdom” by allowing the rights granted in the constitution?
He is obviously lacking in some wisdom himself by even making such an unconscious statement. Oh, but wait, maybe he can now come in and play Solomon and impart his wisdom for a “compromise” and the Obama apologist can raise their hands in praise for the enlightenment he imparts to the masses.
Non-profits fundraise to get money. They would be one amazing fundraising organization if they had already raised the money since July of 2009 when they purchased the property. People have been praying there since last summer and the uproar is just now happening. Being played indeed.
I absolutely agree that the constitutional right of protest is a sacred as religious freedom. But I think our representatives in government have an equally sacred obligation to provide the truth in such a situation and protect the hell out of everyone’s constitutional rights.
An open question for those who seek “wisdom” from those seeking to open the community center.
Do you really want to pave the way for a christian theocracy in this country?
It is often “unwise” to exercise a constitutional right. Rosa parks brought a world of shit down on herself. I could list other examples in the hundreds if not thousands of similarly unwise citizens.
When I was protesting in the 60’s, my mom thought I was unwise (Notwithstanding the fact that the US government was trying to get my ass shot off.) The cops were pretty pissed about it. Same with civil rights. But we won.
If we allow the christian theocrats and the wingnuts to stampede us here, where does that end?
Yes, this is what we intend to do. Take over the country and make you go to church. But, more important, make you confess you sins.
No wonder you are uneasy. I’d be too if I had that coming.
Wisdom is recognizing that you are hurting people for no good reason. There is NO reason that the center MUST be built in that exact location.
Until Muslims truly ostracize Al Queda, they will pay the price of being associated with them. “Muslims” don’t support Al Queda, but lots of Muslims do.
When you think of a REAL rejection of a group, think about how the people in San Francisco ostracized the backers of Prop. 8. THAT is actually showing you don’t support something someone is doing. Not the lip service that happens when the speaker is in the West and then the cheering that happens when back in the Mid East.
Do you remember the jumping up and down that occurred in the West Bank on the day of 9/11 and guys on the Muslim street calling it the “operation of the century?” So, don’t tell me they it is illogical for them to pay some burden of association.
Let’s see some REAL distance between Muslims and radicals. Not words.
I ostracize that type of hate same as I would members of the Klan, Fred Phelps church, or other white supremacist or anti-gay groups. They have a right to their hate but that doesn’t mean I have to do anything that supports them other than allowing them to spout their gibberish
Like the REAL rejection of the pedophiles by the Nazi pope – who is sheltering one of the worst enablers?
Or the REAL rejection of the crusades, the inquisition and other christian atrocities? Or the REAL rejection of the varied christian terrorists in this country?
Got it.
“Until Muslims truly ostracize Al-Qaeda, they will pay the price of being associated with them.”
You’re doing Al-Qaeda’s work for them and don’t even know it.
Sentiments like yours are exactly what Al-Qaeda loves to trumpet to the Muslim world, to prove that all Americans are hateful bigots who want to kill all Muslims and who can never live in peace with them:
Meanwhile, Howard’s doubling down and making no sense:
Sorry cregan we see this very, very differently. This whole affair started when right wing bloggers implied that those planning to build this Islamic cutural center had no right to build that center in lower Manhattan. Firstly they stated that this was an attempt to build a mosque, which it was not, they also fed the fuels of racial and religious intolerance by making it out as if a bunch of (TM)evil mooslims were going to set up a (TM)radical Islamic training camp in the middle of hallowed ground(which apparently extends over all of Manhattan). Of course all this happened only after it was apparent that this was a done deal, because the local residents and their zoning commission had already given a green light.
Now when you take something which is already a done deal and then make it into a national issue asking people how they feel about such when these people have no input into the legal decision making process-what the hell do you expect-lot’s of people get all indignant and up in arms and outraged. This whole thing is right-wing propaganda.
Are we going to have to hold a national referendum any time any one wants to build anything in Manhattan until such a time that it is no longer considered hallow?
Or is it only when that which is being built is being built by or for our fellow American Muslims?
So anyplace in the vicinity of the hallowed grounds of the ruins of the World Trade Center is now officially off limits to all American Muslims?
Are those residents of Manhattan un-American because they have yet to run off all of the Muslims who live and worship there?(and of course that includes American Muslims)
This whole thing stinks so damned bad of racial/cultural/religious intolerance it makes my stomach turn.
The fact that many Americans respond so negatively to this is *exactly* why that Islamic Cultural Center should be built right there. If for no other reason than to prevent those who would frame this as America vs. Islam from having the last word.
The fact the Pearl Harbor attack was used by Americans to justify setting up concentration camps for Japanese-Americans is a lasting disgrace upon ideals of liberty and freedom of this nation. Every American should feel ashamed of this, IMNSHO. The backlash against Muslims in this nation since 9/11, albeit predictable, is a lasting shame on our great nation. Political grandstanding based on fanning the flames of racial/cultural/religious fears and prejudice, which this whole issue perfectly captures, is an outrage. Sorry no sympathy here.
I have no desire to protest the building of Catholic churches. The point I was trying to make, and evidently I failed, is that freedom of religion is absolute. There is no gray area.
I am an atheist and while I think organized religion is a cancer on our society, I believe in your right to disagree with me and to worship how you see fit.
Living in a free society is a messy business and we are all going to be offended by each other at some point. Being offended is not grounds to move the Muslim community center. Being an atheist is not grounds to protest the building of Catholic churches. Live and let live … how hard is that?
I love my freedoms and I also love your freedoms. They are the same freedoms and we can’t have one without the other.
I heartily endorse every single word of that. Well said.