close
The Wayback Machine - https://web.archive.org/web/20100423134808/http://www.dailykos.com:80/story/2010/4/19/858782/-SCOTUS-Hears-Argument-On-Texting-Privacy

Daily Kos

SCOTUS Hears Argument On Texting Privacy

Digg this! Share this on Twitter - SCOTUS Hears Argument On Texting PrivacyTweet this submit to reddit

Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:32:04 PM PDT

When a government employee sends text messages on his government-issued pager, does he have a reasonable expectation of privacy that his messages will not be reviewed by the government?

That's the question which was argued before the Supreme Court of the United States today in City of Ontario (CA) v. Quon, involving a SWAT team member who was using his pager to send an excessive number of texts to his wife and his, um, girlfriend.  [There was a limit of 25,000 characters/month under the plan.]  The Department reviewed his messages to determine how many of them were work-related and how many were personal so they could charge him for the cost of the excess.  Officer Quon, his now ex-wife and his girlfriend (also a colleague) in turn sued the City and his wireless provider in federal court, claiming violations of their Fourth Amendment and California Constitution rights of privacy, as well as violations of the federal Stored Communications Act by his wireless provider for disclosing the content of the text messages without his consent.  The case before the Supreme Court concerns the federal right of privacy only.

The City argued that it had a reasonable need to monitor texts to confine the pager to work-related purposes and had asserted a no-privacy policy in advance; Quon argued that the department had told him it wasn't going to violate privacy, and that it had less intrusive means for determining whether his usage was appropriate.  A coalition of news organizationa argued for the City, claiming that the public's right to know what government employees were doing with government resources meant such communications should be public records, while the ACLU, EFF, CDT and Public Citizen argued that whatever's decided here should be limited to the context of government-as-employer, and that the Court should be hesitant about making a lot of new law with all these new technologies (while, ultimately, supporting Officer Quon).  

And, finally, the United States argued (via the SG's Office) that because the City's official policy announced there was no expectation of privacy, that therefore there was no right to privacy and the search was fine:

Because the City obtained all of the messages at issue through a valid search of the pager account assigned to Quon, the senders of those messages— Jerilyn Quon, Florio, and Trujillo—have no valid Fourth Amendment claim. Once their messages to Quon were delivered to his City-issued pager, they had no further cognizable interest under the Fourth Amendment in what happened to those messages. A valid search of a person’s papers frequently extends to papers sent by another person, such as an already-delivered letter. The original letter-writer has no right to object. So too here: the City had a constitutionally valid basis for searching Quon’s text messages, and that basis extends to all of the messages, irrespective of who sent them.

At oral argument today (PDF), the Chief Justice seemed sympathetic to Quon's argument:

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: We are not going to audit them. Right? That's what he said. He has to pay for them. Right? Now, most people will say, well, if you're paying for them, they are yours. And it particularly covered messages off-duty.

Now, can't you sort of put all those together and say that it would be reasonable for him to assume that private messages were his business? They said he can do it. They said, you have got to pay for it. He used it off-duty. They said they are not going to audit it.

So, too, did Justice Sotomayor:

JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Counsel, let's assume that in this police department, everyone knew, the supervisors and everyone else, that the police department people spoke to their girlfriends at night.

MR. RICHLAND: Yes, Justice Sotomayor.

JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: And one of the chiefs, out of salacious interest, decides: I'm going to just go in and get those texts, those messages, because I just have a prurient interest. Does that officer have any expectation of privacy that his boss won't just listen in out of prurient interest?

MR. RICHLAND: Justice Sotomayor, as to the first aspect, the question of reasonable expectation of privacy, the motive should have no impact. The motive of looking should have no impact. The question of reasonable expectation of privacy must be analyzed according to the relationship between the officer and his -- and his employer.

JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: But if in fact -- and whether we agree with this conclusion or not, we accept the lower court's views that there was an expectation that the chiefs were not going to read these things, some expectation of privacy --

MR. RICHLAND: Yes.

JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: The limits of it have to be limited for all of the reasons you said. Doesn't this case begin and end on whether or not what the jury found is reasonable grounds for what the city did?

MR. RICHLAND: I think that what this case begins and ends with, if we assume that there was a reasonable expectation of privacy, is under the plurality opinion in O'Connor: Whether the search itself was reasonable. And the jury did, of course, make a determination as to the purpose of the search.

MR. RICHLAND: I think that what this case begins and ends with, if we assume that there was a reasonable expectation of privacy, is under the plurality opinion in O'Connor: Whether the search itself was reasonable. And the jury did, of course, make a determination as to the purpose of the search.

JUSTICE SCALIA: I guess we don't decide our -- our Fourth Amendment privacy cases on the basis of whether there -- there was an absolute guarantee of privacy from everybody. I think -- I think those cases say that if you think it can be made public by anybody, you don't -- you don't really have a right of privacy.

So when the -- when the filthy-minded police chief listens in, it's a very bad thing, but it's not offending your right of privacy. You expected somebody else could listen in, if not him.

MR. RICHLAND: I think that's correct, Justice Scalia.

JUSTICE SCALIA: I think it is.

When Neal Katyal argued for the United States, the Chief Justice piped up again, and really sounds like he's trying to understand the technology and defend privacy here:

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Your point that you made just a moment ago that we don't want to freeze into place the constitutional requirements with respect to new technology, I wonder if it cuts the other way. We are dealing with an amendment that looks to whether something is reasonable. And I think it might be the better course to say that the Constitution applies, but we are going to be more flexible in determining what is reasonable because we are dealing with evolving technology.

MR. KATYAL: Well, I think that the -- the best way -- I think the most -- the easiest way for the Court to resolve this is to simply say that when we are dealing with what is reasonable, we look to the policy. And here there is a policy by the employer, it says that computer-associated and computer-related equipment and others, there is no expectation of privacy. You have a person who is told that repeatedly.

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: But that puts a lot of weight -- I mean, there are some things where we don't bind them. You know, you get the usual parking garage thing that has got all this small print on the back. We -- we don't say that you are bound by that because nobody reads it.  

But in here, I just don't know. I just don't know how you tell what is reasonable. I suspect it might change with how old people are and how comfortable they are with the technology when you have all these different -- different factors.  You know, they are told you can use it for private, you got to pay for it. I think if I pay for it, it's mine and not the employer's.

MR. KATYAL: Well, I think the clearest way, Mr. Chief Justice, to decide what is reasonable and what isn't is actually the terms of the policy. And it seems to me very little is more unreasonable than expecting the right to privacy after you have been told in a policy you have no privacy....

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: So, your -- your position would require people basically to have two of these things with them, two of whatever they are, the text messager or the BlackBerries or whatever, right? Because assuming they are going to get personal things, you know, some emergency at home, they are also going to get work things?

MR. KATYAL: To the -- under this policy, yes. You might have an employer that sets a different policy and allows for some de minimis use and a zone of privacy in that use. You can have a variety of different things. But what I think would be dangerous is to have a blanket rule that constitutionalizes and says you always have reasonable expectations of privacy in this technology. The result may be, Mr. Chief Justice, that employers then won't give that technology at all to their employees, and -- and eliminate even that de minimis use.

Meanwhile, you know who was skeptical about the officer's claims?  Justice Breyer.  For reals:

JUSTICE BREYER: [M]y question was, I don't see anything, quite honestly, unreasonable about that, where you are the employer, where it's a SWAT team, where where - where you are paying for this in the first place. So the reason I ask it, is I would like you clearly to explain what's unreasonable about it?

MR. DAMMEIER: The scope of the search was unreasonable.

JUSTICE BREYER: That's the conclusion, now what's your reason?

MR. DAMMEIER: Under -- under -- looking at O'Connor, you have to -- you have to look to make sure that the search is not excessively intrusive. Here, what they did was they took all the messages and started reading them. Given the purpose, the limited purpose that was found by the jury for the search, they didn't need to do that.

JUSTICE BREYER: Well, explain that one to me.

MR. DAMMEIER: They -

JUSTICE BREYER: Being naive about this, if I had a -- like, 20, 30,000 characters in 1,800 messages and I wanted to know which are personal and which are work-related, a good way to get at least a good first cut would be to read them.

(Laughter.)

JUSTICE BREYER: Okay? So I start off thinking that seems to be reasonable to me. That's what I would do.

MR. DAMMEIER: Well, that's certainly one -

JUSTICE BREYER: So all right. Now you tell me why that isn't reasonable.

MR. DAMMEIER: That's one of the ways they could have done it. They could have got -- they could have got consent from the officers first to do it. They could have had the officers themselves count the messages. After all, the officers were the ones that were paying for the -

JUSTICE BREYER: All right. But your officers might say I don't want to read these messages because they happen to be about the sexual activity of some of my coworkers and their wives and me, which happened to be the case here.

MR. DAMMEIER: Right.

JUSTICE BREYER: So I guess if you had asked for consent, the officer would have said no. Now he says, I still want to know. I will be repeating it. All right. So what -- that didn't sound very practical. What's the other way?

MR. DAMMEIER: Well, they could have -- they could have had the officers themselves count the messages.

JUSTICE BREYER: Well, the officer is going to say hey, these are all big -- work-related. I will tell you that. I only had two.

MR. DAMMEIER: Well -

(Laughter.)

JUSTICE BREYER: Okay. What's a third way?

MR. DAMMEIER: Okay. They -- the lieutenant could have said, hey, we're going to stop this practice that I started, and from this month forward make sure all you do is business-related. No more -

JUSTICE BREYER: That would have been rough on them. Because you want to let them have a few; you need pizza when you are on duty. You want to -- there are -

MR. DAMMEIER: Look -

JUSTICE BREYER: So far I listened to four things and I'm just being naive about it; I will read it more closely, but I don't see why these four things are so obviously more reasonable than what they did.

And, um, Justice Stevens:

JUSTICE STEVENS: I ask you this question about the basic background of a reasonable expectation of privacy. This is a SWAT team. Supposing it was the officer answering 911 calls or things like that. Isn't there sort of a background expectation that sooner or later, somebody might have to look at communications for this particular kind of law enforcement officer?

MR. DAMMEIER: Well, certainly -- certainly that could happen in any number of -

JUSTICE STEVENS: I mean, wouldn't you just assume that that whole universe of conversations by SWAT officers who were on duty 24/7 might well have to be reviewed by some member of the public or some of their superiors?

Expect a ruling by the end of the Court's term in June. Just don't ask me what ruling.  Lyle Denniston, Orin Kerr have more.

  • ::

Tags: scotus, supreme court, fourth amendment, right of privacy (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 185 comments

  •  Just what Detroit needs... (3+ / 0-)

    Another reason for Kwame Kilpatrick's sexting scandal to make the news.

    We've been Kwame'ed out here in Motown.

  •  This Court will vote on net neutrality... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    OLinda, Flit, tlemon

    "Be convinced that to be happy means to be free and that to be free means to be brave." - Thucydides

    by JasperJohns on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:39:36 PM PDT

  •  I'm actually with the city on this. (21+ / 0-)

    They should have the right to monitor communications on their equipment without consent of the person entrusted with that equipment.

    Especially if said equipment is being charged on a limited use plan.  the messages, in addition to the equipment itself, is government property.

    Not that my opinion matters in this.  But SWAT guy was a dumbass. the last 10 years I"ve never had a job that DID NOT make me sign some kind of "terms of use" form that pretty much said as much.

    •  Depends what (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pd, MJB, BachFan, annieli

      Quon means when he said "the department told him it wasn't going to violate privacy".

      If the written policy says one thing, but everyone was told that the written policy wouldn't be enforced in this fashion, that's a much harder case.

      I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

      by AnnArborBlue on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:43:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  via SCOTUSwiki (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        DawnG

        fferings its own interpretation of the facts, the brief quoted the Ninth Circuit as having said that the "operational realities" in the Ontario Police Department were "dramatically transformed" when the police lieutenant made a specific choice not to enforce the general no-privacy policy, written for computers, against pager use. Employees, the brief added, were never told explicitly, in writing, that pagers were covered by the policy. After first saying that the policy did apply to pagers, the lieutenant "implemented a different policy guaranteeing" privacy for department employees.

        •  I realize that technicality... (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Odysseus, Alice in Florida, Tomsank

          ...is the soul of law, and this case will likely be decided on it's technical merits.

          I'm merely commenting on generalities.  your employer has the right to look at what you do on your work equipment.

          •  Why do you expect no privacy? (7+ / 0-)

            The reactions to this diary disturb me.

            •  My privacy prof in law school (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Adam B

              to quote Ebert, "Hated, hated, HATED" Katz, mostly because he thought the entire test completely ignored the ways in which our expectations of privacy are shaped by the law itself. That Katz doesn't elucidate expectations as much as it creates them. This thread actually seems like a pretty good example of that.

              I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

              by AnnArborBlue on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:09:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  This is a tough issue though. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              DawnG

              I wrestle with it as well because it certainly feels like using work equipment surrenders some expectation of privacy just as walking down a crowded street and speaking on your cell phone surrenders a bit of privacy or creating and socializing on Facebook surrenders some privacy.

              However, the state should also defend privacy perhaps even beyond the individual's caution. I mean we don't think you can con a fool out of their money. We may say that a fool should be more cautious and prudent, but the fact that the fool isn't cautious does not surrender their right to their property.

              "I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."-Jessica Rabbbit

              by Common Cents on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:15:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  There are consequences to a fool's behavior (0+ / 0-)

                The consequences to not being cautious and prudent is a privacy violation.  That's why people who aren't fools are cautious.  

                "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

                by Futuristic Dreamer on Tue Apr 20, 2010 at 01:52:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  It's not that I expect no privacy. (7+ / 0-)

              It's that I do not expect that my judgement about what is proper use of work equipment supercedes the judgement of my employers when dealing with the use of that work equipment.

              I blog at work.  I admit it.  And if they decide to discipline me or fire me because I breached the terms of use, then I'm not going to pretend I didn't KNOW it could have been applied to me in that manner.

              I am of the opinion that when dealing with work equipment, what I think is proper is not important, what the company thinks is proper is.

              I've worked her for 6 years, and I've blogged on dailykos that entire time.  But something is not a problem until it becomes a problem.

            •  plus, expectation is subjective. (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Saru, Tomsank

              I, not being a legal professional, have a hard time understanding how the law can establish expectation objectively.

              I know the technology exists to monitor the systems at my work (I work in tech support).  I know how it's generally applied and in what circumstances.  I don't EXPECT privacy.  Hell all my calls on my work phone are recorded!

              So I have a hard time understanding how a lawyer or a judge can objectively decide, on my behalf, whether I have an expectation of privacy.

              •  The question is not whether you in particular (0+ / 0-)

                have an expectation of privacy, but whether you have a reasonable expectation of privacy--whether the proverbial "reasonable person" would have the expectation of privacy. Ultimately, it comes down to what judges decide is "reasonable"--as with many issues of law.

                "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

                by Alice in Florida on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 06:48:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I expect privacy on my personal equipment (0+ / 0-)

              Not on my employer's equipment.

              "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

              by Futuristic Dreamer on Tue Apr 20, 2010 at 01:50:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  It will be interesting to see whether the (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          BachFan, mdmslle

          lieutenant had the authority to change the policy on the fly for pagers and cover only his command.  As a general rule, and certainly where I worked, we were told that phones, computers and pagers were the property of the company and ALL communication on them belonged to the company.  There was NO expectation of privacy.  Given that, there was still permission to use said equipment on a limited basis for personal communications, however, those communications were not to be considered private either, so we all knew to keep them to a minimum and necessary amount.  As a Detroiter, I witnessed the whole Kwame mess over this issue and I continue to be stunned by the naivete of public officials with regard to these communication tools.  Don't get me wrong, I'm a big supporter of privacy rights, but this appears to be a case of not following the employer's rules.  If the court rules that the guy's superior officer did have the ability to alter the rules to suit his team, then that creates a grey area and the officer may be vindicated.

      •  We have an incidental use policy (9+ / 0-)

        and it pretty much states that although they CAN look, they usually WON'T look -- UNLESS there is a problem.  Exceeding monthly usage limits -- that's a problem.  Therefore, duh, they were gonna look.

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:48:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  exactly. (6+ / 0-)

          I used to work with a guy who got fired for surfing porn and having illicit chats on his work computer.  It's not like someone did random scans of his browser history and caught him.  Someone reported it and his system was scanned and he was fired.

          It's generally not a problem until it's a problem.

          •  Filtering ? (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Odysseus, DawnG

            I know two, no three  who were fired for porn on Co. computers. The IT guy used free Spybot on our PC's. Ha!
            You have to be free to goto web sites to stay current in your area of expertise and maintain contacts through company or private email and maintain ones privacy.  
            NO Facebook, MySpace, etc.

            Chance favors the prepared mind-Pasteur

            by tlemon on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:09:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It's never a problem, until it's a problem. (7+ / 0-)

        No one's going to violate privacy, unless there's a reason for it.

        The officer created a reason with excessive personal use of a work device.  And I'm with Bryer on this.  How else are they going to know it's a personal text?

        There are certain things you simply do not do from a work device.  You don't surf porn, you don't have illicit chats, etc.  This is improper use of what is supposed to be a work device.

        And I realize the law is trying to figure out the proper balance here.  It's a tough call but I'm still inclined to side with the city.

        Let's just say, I don't consider it a loss no matter which way it goes.

        •  ALSO worth noting. (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          lostinamerica, annieli, Susan G in MN

          Being in law enforcement, his department may likely have had regulations against romantic relationships with co-workers.  He got caught having an affair with a co-worker from his work pager.  

          I mean come on!  

        •  Unfortunately, the solution is obvious (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          mdmslle

          to anyone who has ever had budget responsibility for something like this.  

          Like I do.

          The employee pays for any overage on the plan.  If he doesn't want to do that, he can a) use his own unit for any personal stuff, or b) authorize a detailed review of all his messages, and pay for any personal use as a fraction of the total bill if there is an overage.

          That should be the policy, and it should be understood.  Unfortunately, they didn't think about this ahead of time and now have to deal with this crap.

          Certainly from our standpoint, this gives us a sense of momentum -- when the United States has accolades tossed its way, rather than shoes. - PJ Crowley

          by nsfbr on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 06:38:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  hmm... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lgmcp, BachFan, Tomsank

        It sounds like the official stance is that you have no privacy.  But that it is understood that they rarely check it.

        I too am with the city on this.

        •  The way the 4th Amendment works (5+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Adam B, Pd, Laughing Vergil, CaliSista, annieli

          though, it's the expectation that matters. If there's a written policy on the books that has never been enforced in 50 years or something, and everyone is told that the official policy exists, but that it won't be enforced, then I think a lot of people would agree that you have both a subjective and objective expectation of privacy.

          I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

          by AnnArborBlue on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:54:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was surprised to learn how much of that logic (3+ / 0-)

            applies to real estate law, too.  If a nieghbor is encroaching on your property, and there is evidence that you ever tolerated or ignored it, then you've effectively lost the rights to that bit of your property. Officially of course started as yours, but if you allowed certain expectations to grow, it might not even be yours anymore.

            "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

            by lgmcp on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:00:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              lgmcp

              but as far as I know adverse possession is way more of a bar exam issue than a real world one. The subjective expectation of privacy test comes up in actual cases all the time, and there's lots of evidence that judges are frickin horrible at it.

              Fun fact-you do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in your bank records. Why? Judges didn't think most people believed their bank records were private. Anyone think that if you asked the average man on the street if he thought his bank records were private, he'd say no?

              I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

              by AnnArborBlue on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:03:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's pretty real in our rural village (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                leftist vegetarian patriot

                where shared irrigation ditches get fenced on one side or the other, and decades later its an issue.  

                About 10% of my two acres is lost, and since the price per acre is through the roof, it's not a small consideration.   At this point, I'm not going to get it back, which is bad enough, but worse still is that apparently the only way to get it off my deed and off my tax bill, will be to sue my own mortgage insurance company.  I'll probably just hand the problem off to my heirs, since it's all too much trouble and we don't plan to move.  

                Bank records aren't private from the bank staff ... but I guess I assumed they were private from landlords and nosy neighbors.

                "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

                by lgmcp on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:12:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Why a subjective expectation? (0+ / 0-)

                If someone has an unreasonable expectation of privacy, why should the law treat that as a standard? Like, say, somebody who refuses to send in their census form because they believe it is an invasion of privacy to be asked for their name and address? Of course the law doesn't recognize that particular "expectation" but there are plenty of equally absurd "expectations" out there.

                "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

                by Alice in Florida on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 07:13:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Ledbetter (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              OLinda, lgmcp

              If you don't do something at when your rights are violated, even unknowingly, youe are basically screwed.

            •  Gotta have affirmative hostile use, denying the (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              lgmcp

              right of the legal owner.

          •  Do you really think that they can come down with (7+ / 0-)

            aa rule which says that a government employee can abuse a device paid for by the City, with no expectation of consequences? If he wanted privacy, he should have used his personal pager, which he might not have wanted to do because his wife would ala Tiger Woods find out about his girlfried when she saw the bill which laid out the messages. So the proper remedy for him was to use a pager for the gf, the bills for which the wife would not see, although it happened to be one which the government paid for, both as to access and as to characters per month, given him for his work purposes. And then the dummy goes over his monthly max because of the private messages to the gf, and got his pager audited. And expects no consequences, baecause his Looie said not, not the office which issued and monitored the pager but his Looie, who may or may not have had authority to issue such a waiver. This would not have arisen if the audit had shown all the messages were work related. Why should a city be required to subsidize this guy's personal love life in a time of city near insolvency, because he is misusing their equipment.

            The waiver argument doesn't really work either. The premise of it is that there may be departmental policy, but a Looie going against that policy can waive it for all purposes whether he has authority to do so or not. One of the problems with police generally is a Blue Wall of Silence whenever officers violate Departmental policy and civil rights at one and the same time, such as when they commit more serious wrongdoing and the Department or his squad hide it. You are going to have to decide here what the authority of the Looie was to waive a policy, and why the Looie's waiver is binding on the City which probably never gave him authority to waive a thing. Would you take the same position if the message were "Looie, I shot the guy when he was unarmend and down" and the Looie responds "Plant your private weapon on him and say he had it." Also not proper procedure and much more serious but also protected under the Fourth Amendment if this boob wins.

    •  I'm with both of them (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Tomsank, CaliSista

      It is a so-far accepted fact that (1) the policy said there was no right to privacy, and (2) that an officer could sent private texts as long as they paid for them.  Given this, both sides do have some standing, and it is a situation that is clearly amenable to litigation.

      The problem is, there are some specific ways that privacy could have been maintained while still satisfying the expectation to pay.  IMO, the correct way to do this would be:

      • Sort the texts by source/destination #
      • Count the texts by source/destination #
      • If you can identify the source/destination of the message, attribute them to work (work source/destination) or non-work (home, other private residence, etc).
      • If you cannot attribute the source/destination, look at the message
      •     IMO, you cannot just ask the recipient/sender in a police situation, as corruption could be a factor.
      • If you found actionable items in the texts you could not attribute without examining them, you can act on that information

      This pattern has the advantage of keeping private husband/wife correspondence free from examination, while subjecting unknown data to examination.  The pattern pretty much matches that used for access to a secure computer network, except the analysis of the contents is normally conducted by software in that case.

      Is violating privacy bad?  Yes.  Is violating trust bad?  Yes.  Is this worthy of Supreme court review?  I think so.

      --------------
      Member, Former Republicans for True Justice.

      by Laughing Vergil on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:11:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why couldn't the City go (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      WillR

      by the addressee of the texts to determine whether they were personal?  Why couldn't they use his work schedule to show which ones were during non-working hours? If the officer wants to dispute that his numerous texts to his colleague wife or colleague girlfriend were not personal, he could then submit the actual texts as proof.  Knowing what the messages contained, I would be surprised if he wouldn't have just paid in order to keep his activities quiet.

      In spite of the above, I still agree that the City has the right to look based on their stated policy. Where I have problems is with the add on by the media stating that these texts should be PUBLIC information.  That's going way too far if you ask me.

      •  Good idea. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        CaliSista

        An alternative way would also have been for the City to have said

        "You went over your text message quota - you need to identify all those that were personal and you should expect to be paying for those. Any you don't tag as personal, we will review to make our own determination as to if they were personal or business."

        This would have preserved whatever privacy rights the officer had (if any) and accomplished the goal.

        This could be complicated because, for example, in a personal message exchange sequence there might be several messages in the series but with a few of them removed, it would be hard to tell if the remaining ones were personal. Such as:

        1. Officer to Colleague: Hey I want to kiss you all over.
        2. Colleague to Officer: That sounds like a great idea.
        3. Officer to Colleague: Shall we plan on it?
        4. Colleague to Officer: Yes, our usual hideout and usual time?
        5. Officer to Colleague: How about an hour later?
        6. Colleague to Officer: Confirmed.

        If the officer claims #1 and #4 are personal so the City "can't" look at them, it's pretty hard to tell from the content of the remaining messages if they were personal or business related (they could have been agreeing to meet over pizza to discuss the recent policy change on SWAT weapon security in hopes of understanding it better).

    •  Privacy trumps warrentless wiretapping (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Battle4Seattle

      Chance favors the prepared mind-Pasteur

      by tlemon on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:17:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Texting is just another form of communication. (0+ / 0-)

      I'm sure most, if not everyone gets calls from their wives, girlfriends, calls pertaining to personal finance at work.  Would you be comfortable with someone listening in on those phone calls? All they had to do, if it was just an issue of cost and the city claims that's all it was, is get the phone numbers of his personal calls and texts and charge for those calls.  There was no need to look at the texts.  If the court thinks that any text or call you make at work should be fair game for employers to be able to view or listen to, I feel it would violate that person's rights unless they are told upfront when they're hired in plain language that we will monitor all calls and texts. They then have a choice and knowledge of that fact beforehand.

  •  Sounds like (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DawnG, Adam B, lgmcp, lostinamerica

    this is going to be a Thornton/Gall type decision where the breakdown of votes makes no friggin sense whatsoever.

    I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

    by AnnArborBlue on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:41:51 PM PDT

    •  reminds me of a judge judy... (6+ / 0-)

      ...episode where she was rulling on a case where a guy played a prank on another guy with a little app that made it look like his entire hard drive was being deleted.  The guy freakedo ut and bought hundreds of dollars in backup and anti-virus software/hardware and was suing the guy who emailed him that app.

      She starts off her ruling with "I don't understand computers".  And that was pretty much the most sense she made the entire episode.

      It's difficult to have these issues of high technology being decided by people who have mixed understanding of what they're being asked to rule on.

      •  Dunno, here, though ... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Odysseus, Battle4Seattle

        CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: So, your -- your position would require people basically to have two of these things with them, two of whatever they are, the text messager or the BlackBerries or whatever, right? Because assuming they are going to get personal things, you know, some emergency at home, they are also going to get work things?

        Roberts is playing up his ignorance here (since he's no old fogey), but the question is still quite pertinent.

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:50:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm a young associate at a law firm (10+ / 0-)

          On the first day we started working, they gave us our Blackberries and told us we could use them for personal phone use, but that they'd have the right to see what we were doing on them.

          We all carry both our Blackberries and our IPhones. I don't think it's as uncommon as you'd think.

          I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

          by AnnArborBlue on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:53:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I work with a guy... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            pvlb

            ...who carries 3 cellphones and only one of them is for work.

            He looks silly with 3 phones on his belt, but there you go.

          •  See that's the part that bothers me. They (0+ / 0-)

            shouldn't say you can use them for personal use. Just say these are for work use. If you give friends your number, will they know anything they say might become common knowledge? That's unfair to their expectation of privacy.

            Do you have to pay for them? If so, I think the "personal use" thing is just a way for them to justify NOT paying for a work tool. That sucks.

            "[K]now that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy." -Barack Obama

            by Battle4Seattle on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:29:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, I don't pay for it (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Tomsank, SheLawyer, Battle4Seattle

              With as much as they expect me to check the thing, they better not make me pay for it.

              I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

              by AnnArborBlue on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:30:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm on the other end of your transaction (5+ / 0-)

                I'm a partner in a law firm, and we give all our associates a choice of Iphone, Blackberry, or whatever smartphone comes from either of the two providers we have contracts with.  We pay for the usage.  We also give them a laptop.  But we make clear that the equipment we give them belongs to the firm.  Even the phone number is ours -- we expect other lawyers in the firm to have it, and clients where appropriate.  

                While we don't prohibit personal use of these, it's made clear from the beginning that, if it's our stuff, we get to look at it if we need to.  Those who want a completely private phone get their own and carry it as well.

                From my perspective, it's not that I care what they are doing with it as a personal matter.  But liability can attach to the firm for what they are doing. As some have mentioned, if a lawyer is, for example, looking at porn on a firm device, and it is displayed to non-lawyer staff, that can be considered harassment and the firm becomes liable.  If they do something on it that may expose the firm to malpractice -- like giving advice "off the record" to someone we could not represent because there's a conflict (that's happened) -- I need to know.  

                If I can be liable for what happens with the device, I need to be able to look at it.  And we tell our lawyers that up front.  We seldom do, of course, but all our lawyers -- from the most senior partner to the most junior associate -- are made aware that the phones, blackberries, laptops belong to the firm and the firm can see what's on them if necessary.  

  •  I don't see it. You use business-issued commun- (6+ / 0-)

    ications tools with an explicitly stated no privacy policy and then whine about your privacy being violated?

    Cry me a river.

    Now had they NOT had a the policy, I can see an argument.  But no, he simply expected them to do the exact opposite of the policy. sheesh.

    I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken. - Oliver Cromwell

    by Ezekial 23 20 on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:41:52 PM PDT

    •  On the facts ... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pd, AnnArborBlue, BlueJessamine

      ... it sounds like he was told "oh, we're not going to look."  

    •  From Quon's merits brief (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      BlueJessamine

      The supervisor said no one's messages would be looked at as long as the officers agreed to pay for overages.

      •  Both briefs also concede, though, that the same (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        SheLawyer

        officer specifically told them, apparently before the issue arose here, that pagers, although not mentioned in the electronics policy written before the first pager was bought, were included in the no privacy rule, and the entire pager program was only eight months old. And the chief also said it, the chief having authority to do so.

        Quon would have known anyway because he was a command officer, head of the SWAT unit. A lot of the question here is what weight to give to the Looie's informal deal in contravention of departmental policy, which is especially problematic because the audit was triggered by the same Looie's complaints that he was spending too much time collecting the overages.

        The jury below found that on inception, the audit was proper because its stated purpose was to look at the two most overaged officers in a given month, to see if the maximum number of units being allotted and paid for by the City were sufficient to cover all proper work use. Apparently the Looie on this one said he got tired of the labor intensive work of collecting on the overages, and the result was the audit to see if the "City Pays" section of the pager bill needed to be increased, which meant figuring out how much of the bill for a given pager with an overage was City work. There is nothing in the briefs which I see which suggests they were looking for salacious personal texts when they started on the audit.

        And the test seems to be whether the expectation of privacy was reasonable, as in 'reasonable man", not whether Quon simply personally believed he would be OK on keeping his secrets of pager use if he paid the overages, despite departmental policy, because his own Looie said so at some point. Is it reasonable to expect that a Looie can agree something in contravention of departmental policy of which you have been informed, and reasonably to rely on the Looie and not the policy.

        The briefs indicate that not everyone briefing is quoting from majority or plurality opinions, a bit here and there from undisclosed dissents.

  •  What a waste of time for the court (13+ / 0-)

    If you use company equipment, you can't have an expectation of privacy, especially when you have been told in advance.

    If you have private communications use your own equipment.

    Plus - bonus - the person he was texting was a co-worker, so without reading the communications there is no way to know if the message was personal or business related .

    Like I said Quon is wasting everyone's time.

    I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong- Feynman

    by taonow on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:46:24 PM PDT

    •  Well... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      BlueJessamine

      ... if you were explicitly told by your employer that you would have an expectation of privacy it seems to me that you have, well, and expectation of privacy. . .

      And if, as it was suggested in the write-up, he was told that he would be able to use the phone for personal communications but that he would have to pay for those personal communications, it seems to me that the expectation of privacy is even greater. . .

      •  well... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BachFan, Battle4Seattle

        The City argued that it had a reasonable need to monitor texts to confine the pager to work-related purposes and had asserted a no-privacy policy in advance; Quon argued that the department had told him it wasn't going to violate privacy, and that it had less intrusive means for determining whether his usage was appropriate.

        Guessing but a "no privacy policy" is probably written down. Now why a department would specifically tell (verbally?) an employee that he/she would not be monitored is plain strange.

        "Here's a device and don't worry we won't monitor you", Really? Why would the topic even come up?

        I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong- Feynman

        by taonow on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:02:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree... (3+ / 0-)

          if the department hadn't done the whole "we don't really care" thing then this wouldn't even be an issue.

          Moral of the story: Don't tell your employees one set of guidelines in writing and another set of guidelines verbally.

          From what little knowledge about this case that I have, I would rule that this dude had an expectation of privacy but that, had he not received conflicting information, the search would have been legitimate.

          I would also fire the person who told him that he wouldn't be monitored ASAP.

          •  No, moral of the story is if you work in the (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            SheLawyer

            public sector, there is a reasonable expectation that,at some point, the taxpayers who pay your salary are going to possibly have an accounting of everything that they have been paying for - including your phone bill.

            •  No way... (0+ / 0-)

              You don't abandon all of your constitutional rights as soon as you take a job from the government.

              Should we install cameras in the bathrooms of public office buildings to ensure that public employees are not reading magazines on the john and, thus, stealing public monies?

              •  Stop with the strawman! Communications received (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                SheLawyer

                and sent on equipment that is ostensibly for official, and in the case of SWAT, emergency use, is not the same as taking a dump. Internal affairs could take a look at those communications at any time, as well they should be able to, to protect you and me from crooked cops. he wants to buy a donut, read a magazine, whatever, and you find that equivalent?

                •  But a broad ruling on this case... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...will cause a lot of these "strawman" arguments to suddenly become legally plausible.

                  You say that "Communications received and sent on equipment that is ostensibly for official, and in the case of SWAT, emergency use."

                  But that misunderstands Quon's argument. He claims that the equipment was for both official and personal use, and that personal use was authorized by his superiors and he was explicitly told that he would be able to pay for them and that they would not be monitored. If all of that is true, and it's a big if, I don't see why he shouldn't have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

                  •  Did his superiors authorize (0+ / 0-)

                    having an affair with a co-worker? What if he were using the phone to engage in criminal activity--should he have an expectation of privacy for that?

                    "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

                    by Alice in Florida on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 07:37:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  If you take a job in the private sector (0+ / 0-)

                where most people work, you have no constitutional rights against your employer. It is clearly understood that in the private sector, no one has a right to privacy on their company phone unless they own the frickin company. A public sector employee does not have a constitutional right to private use of public resources.

                "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

                by Alice in Florida on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 07:35:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Ah, words matter. He wasn't told he would have an (0+ / 0-)

        expectation of privacy specifically. He was told of the new rule, and his Looie then said, rule or no, he would not audit if the Petitioner simply paid the overages. And then the Looie raised with administration his own burdensome task of collection, which resulted in an audit of the two most overaged officers to see if there was a need to increase the maximum number of units to be allotted to 'work' for which the officer would not pay.  

    •  SCOTUS is wasting your time and money (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Alice in Florida, lostinamerica

      by accepting these cases. I'm sure that there are plenty of more worthy cases but the calibre of the court has so declined that they take cases like this. It is on the way to becoming irrelevant because its prestige outweighs its usefulness.

      Since Clarence Thomas,
      Since Gore vs Bush
      Since Scalia & Cheney
      Since Alito

      The court may remain the "holy temple" for lawyers & politicians but what does it really mean for the country.

      This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

      by Agathena on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:03:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Adam B, Pd, BachFan

        heaven forbid the Court clarify one's expectation of privacy in work equipment. I mean, who could that possibly impact?

        I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

        by AnnArborBlue on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:06:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It sounds more like they are muddying it (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Agathena

          Everyone else has understood for quite some time that there is no expectation of privacy when using an employer's telephone/internet/etc.

          "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

          by Alice in Florida on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 07:39:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The subject was texting his wife and girl-friend (0+ / 0-)

          excessively which is what triggered the investigation of this texting.

          I imagine if they rule for the City and against the obsessive compulsive subject who sent thousands of texts, in the period of one month to wife & girl-friend, that in future, work equipment will be used more professionally and with restraint.

          This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

          by Agathena on Tue Apr 20, 2010 at 12:11:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  As a former government employee... (11+ / 0-)

    the guy should have no right to privacy. Everything and anything he wrote on a department owned phone should be subject to a FOIA request and be made available. Now if there was an official policy to the contrary then that's different and that policy shouldn't exist but if it was just we're going to turn a blind eye to reasonable personal use then it should be caveat emptor.

    That's the responsibility of the government employee as far as I'm concerned. If you want privacy then pay for a second personal phone. Sunshine laws are extremely important at a local level and the number of things that shouldn't be publicized for good reason are few. When I worked there I knew e-mails, texts, phone records, my salary, etc. were all public record. That's how it should be.

    The Great Depression: Now In Color!

    by TheChop on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:46:31 PM PDT

    •  So... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Battle4Seattle

      You don't think government agencies should be required to truthfully present their policies to their employers and the public?

      •  That's why I said... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lostinamerica, Christy1947

        "Now if there was an official policy to the contrary then that's different..."

        It sounds like the official policy was that there would be no expectation of privacy on the device. A Lieutenant said that personal use was okay. The case hangs a lot on what the Lieutenant said but even mixed signals should demonstrate to the officer that there was a reasonable expectation that the texts would not stay private.

        Even then the Lieutenant saying that personal use was okay does not mean that personal use was protected and would stay private and I can't see anyone who is smart enough in police procedure to be on SWAT would legitimately take it as such.

        The Great Depression: Now In Color!

        by TheChop on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:15:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Was there a no-fraternization rule as to fellow (0+ / 0-)

          officers (the gf is reportedly another department employeee) and did Quon get in trouble with that out of this?

        •  But... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Battle4Seattle

          Apparently the Lieutenant told Quon that it would stay private and that the department had 'other ways' of finding out how to charge for personal use.

          If it can be established that the Lt. told Quon all of these things, it seems entirely reasonable to conclude that Quon would believe his superior.

          Should he have? Probably not. But is it reasonable to? That's a different question. . .

          •  I still don't buy it. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Alice in Florida, Pd

            I couldn't find a section where it says what Quon said the Lt. said and what the Lt. said the Lt. said word for word.

            It is not all that believable that the Lt. told Quon that the messages were not reviewable in the slightest and that Quon could use the pager for whatever he wanted and no one would ever find out. Without an e-mail to that effect I don't see Quon having any sort of case.

            If the Lt. said, "You can use it for personal use. We're not going to check every month and see what everyone has been saying to their wives." Then he had the expectation that every message wasn't going to be read but he knew that there was a possibility it could be.

            The Great Depression: Now In Color!

            by TheChop on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:40:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I haven't listened to the case (0+ / 0-)

              ...and don't know the facts much beyond what's presented here and on SCOTUS blog, but if it can not be established that Quon was told that his pages were to remain private, then a reasonable expectation to privacy does not exist.  

              I'm just a bit weirded out by everybody's eagerness to call this search fair-game even if he were explicitly told by his superior that the texts would remain private.

              •  I think it's because this is generally accepted.. (0+ / 0-)

                that if you use an employee issued device for communications then those communications can be monitored. I mean they pay the bills. The phone company isn't even going to ask for a warrant when a customer more or less asks to see a detailed billing statement.

                Maybe it's just that the audience is more technically savy here but when I worked in government it was generally known that what was put out over government wires had the possibility of being read by other people.

                Imperfect hyperbole but if the Lieutenant told Quon that it was okay if he put a couple of slugs in the next suspect that mouthed off at him we wouldn't be saying that Quon had a defense because the lethal force policy was mistated by a middle manager.

                The Great Depression: Now In Color!

                by TheChop on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 06:00:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah... (0+ / 0-)

                  I think the sticking point here is that, from Robert's comments, it seems like Quon might have been told that he was allowed to use the pager for personal use and that he's simply have to pay for that use via an accounting method that did not examine the content of those messages. It's a bizarre situation and I hope the court rules narrowly.

                  But:

                  "if the Lieutenant told Quon that it was okay if he put a couple of slugs in the next suspect that mouthed off at him we wouldn't be saying that Quon had a defense because the lethal force policy was mistated by a middle manager"

                  This isn't even a close analogy. There's no way that Quon could argue that he reasonably expected that it was okay to kill the guy.

                  •  A lot of people see it that way... (0+ / 0-)

                    There's no way that Quon could argue that he reasonably expected that it was okay to kill the guy.

                    There's no way that Quon could argue that he reasonably expected that his messages were private.

                    That's kind of the point I was making. It seems like most people on here and from completely antecedal evidence of working in a city government most people knew that it was absurd for the Lt. to say that the messages would never be read by anyone for any reason ever.

                    It also seems a lot of the conversation happened after the messages were already sent. If Quon sent the messages, overage happened and a review process started and THEN he was told they wouldn't have to look into them or wouldn't look into them does that have any bearing on his reasonable expectation of privacy?

                    The Great Depression: Now In Color!

                    by TheChop on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 06:12:51 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Pd, the point is narrower. if Quon had an (0+ / 0-)

                    enforceable expectation of privacy, the contention would be that the Department grabbing the text was inadmissible as an unreasonable and warrantless criminal search. I also made this mistake earlier, but part of the problem here is that there may be a different standard applied when the Department is not doing a criminal investigation of some sort, after the guy is shot, but is rather doing an employment process about the proper number of units to allocate to work use of a department owned pager when the  user has gone over the former max and been asked to pay the excess and the payment process has become burdensome.

                    Part of the question is whether the least intrusive method of determining departmental use could be used, since apparently some of the personal texts were to other past or present members of the Department, which would, save for the review of text, possibly have been written off as work related uses when they in fact were not.

      •  Governmental departments have particular (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Tomsank

        persons and offices which make policy decisions, and publish them expect them to be followed, and which was not asked about a waiver for swats here. Here what you have is a Looie saying he will not enforce the official policy. Whose word is therefore binding on the officer, the particular persons authorized to deal with pager issues, or the Looie of his swat team?

        •  The question... (0+ / 0-)

          ... isn't necessarily whose word is, in the final instance, binding. The question is its whether or not a reasonable expectation of privacy was created by the apparently explicit and detailed instructions about personal use given to Quon by his superiors . . .

          •  "I know what the policy says but we're not going (0+ / 0-)

            to do that" by the Looie, the one reported to have uttered the words, may not get it. Effectively what that would mean is that someone may claim he relied on someone who did not have the authority to do it, and thereby destroy the authority of the one who would have had the authority to do it, but didn't do it. It's hard to say you have a reasonable expectation of anything from someone not in the proper chain of command to give you the directions he actually did, assuming the Looue did. Under that theory, there is no binding chain of command, as long as you elect to rely on whoever tells you what you want to hear.

  •  Neal Katyal (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Adam B, jj32, lgmcp, Populista, annieli

    ..may replace Elena Kagan as Solicitor General if she moves on to the Supreme Court. He is the Principle Deputy Solicitor General now.

    Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

    by Scarce on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:46:44 PM PDT

  •  How does this end up at the doorstep of SCOTUS? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Saru, Tomsank, Inspector Javert

    It sounds pretty cut and dry.  You use some service paid for or provided by your employer according to a stated no privacy policy, you ain't got no expectation of privacy.

    How is this materially different from using a work computer to peruse porn and then getting fired?

    Justice deferred is justice denied. -MLK

    by zephron on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:46:48 PM PDT

    •  Because if your employer says (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Adam B, Pd, BachFan

      "forget the written policy, we will never check your computer to see what you're looking at" you arguably have a reasonable expectation that your employer will not be checking what you're doing on your computer.

      I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

      by AnnArborBlue on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:49:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That this was the case hadn't been made clear. (0+ / 0-)

        This still seems like a silly case nonetheless.

        Justice deferred is justice denied. -MLK

        by zephron on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:24:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  But the employer has a right to expect (3+ / 0-)

        that you won't abuse such a privilege.

        Unless you're a fool, you should pay attention to the written policy and count the "forget the written policy", as a privilege. What they really mean is that "we won't look at what you're doing, as long as what you're doing doesn't become a problem for us."

        Regardless of the written or implied policy, let someone walk by your cubicle or office and catch you looking at porn or sexting or sending resumes to your company's competitors, and guess what will happen? Or, if you're not getting your job done, see how long it takes your employer to start searching for how much time you're spending texting or surfing the Web for personal reasons.

        All to say, those kind of "wink-and-nod" agreements go both ways. It gives the employee a certain amount of freedom to waste some time. No different than wasting time in the breakroom talking about the date somebody had last night.

        But if you abuse it, yes, the employer has a right to look into it.  

        The old man was right. Only the farmers won. We lost. We always lose.

        by GrouchoKossak on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:25:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  it seems to me, as a non-lawyer (0+ / 0-)

        that this case hinges less on what right of privacy one has and more on what the weight of a verbal statement is vs a written policy.

        "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

        by bawbie on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 06:06:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Things like this... (7+ / 0-)

    ...are why I never, ever use company property for personal purposes. It just opens the door for abuse on both sides.
  •  emails and such (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BobTrips, BlueJessamine

    From Christy Harvey at mic check radio

    And, in our favorite exchange, Justices Roberts and Scalia wrestled with how it all works, with Roberts saying, "I thought, you know, you push a button; it goes right to the other thing," to which Scalia responded, "You mean it doesn't go right to the other thing?"

    •  Um, yeah. (5+ / 0-)

      CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Again, it depends upon their reasonable expectation. Do any of these other people know about Arch Wireless? Don't they just assume that once they send something to Quon, it's going to Quon?

      MR. DAMMEIER: That's -- that is true. I mean, they expect -

      CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Well, then they can't have a reasonable expectation of privacy based on the fact that their communication is routed through a communications company.

      MR. DAMMEIER: Well, they -- they expect that some company, I'm sure, is going to have to be processing the delivery of this message. And -

      CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Well, I didn't -- I wouldn't think that. I thought, you know, you push a button; it goes right to the other thing.

      MR. DAMMEIER: Well -

      JUSTICE SCALIA: You mean it doesn't go right to the other thing?

      (Laughter.)

      MR. DAMMEIER: It's -- I mean, it's like with e-mails. When we send an e-mail, that goes through some e-mail provider, whether it be AOL or Yahoo, it it's going through some service provider, just like when we send a letter or package, it's going through -- some provider is going to move that for us, until it gets to the recipient. And like the mail that message enjoys an expectation of right to privacy while it's with the Post Office.

      •  Roberts (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        CaliSista

        He starts out like he understands it, then later doesn't. Not sure what's up, not too clear.

        Is your "um" trying to say something to me?

        On the radio there was a fun exchange with someone wanting to know if Scalia sounded worried when he asked:

        You mean it doesn't go right to the other thing?

        •  It didn't and that was part of the problem, as a (0+ / 0-)

          statute called the Stored Communications Act gives the subscriber, the department, the right to review texts on its account if one SCA classification appears of the service being rendered, and does not if it is another, and the two inferior courts disagreed on that status, but the supplier in fact had an archive to be reviewed, two if I read the briefs correctly. That's how the texts in fact got audited and read. So it appears that the correct answer is , no, it does not go right to the other thing. It goes to the provider and the archive, and goes out therafter to 'the other thing.'

  •  I've pretty much accepted that we have no right (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    OLinda, annieli

    to privacy when it comes to communications in this country.  

    It's sad, but I think that's where we're at. I mean if journalists, human rights groups, and lawyers have no right to privacy in communications with sources, detainees, or clients, why would the average citizen think he/she has a right to privacy? Our country has given up its right to privacy (liberty) in communicatons in the name of security--as Ben Franklin said, we, of course, will end up with neither.

    The loss of liberty might be irreversible, although I still hold out some hope the courts might reverse the trend, as do lawyers and human rights groups. From Democracy Now! today:

    Group Challenges Revised Surveillance Law
    A group of journalists, attorneys and human rights activists are challenging revisions to US surveillance laws that they say are hampering their ability to do their work. On Friday, members of the group told a federal appeals court they’ve been forced to forgo communicating by phone or email out of fear of government surveillance. The revised 2008 surveillance law dropped a requirement that the government identify the subjects of its surveillance. Joanne Mariner of Human Rights Watch says she’s made three recent trips to meet former CIA prisoners in Jordan to avoid speaking to them by phone.

    http://www.democracynow.org/...

    "[K]now that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy." -Barack Obama

    by Battle4Seattle on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 04:54:53 PM PDT

    •  We probably have more privacy now (0+ / 0-)

      ...than any time in the nation's history. Compare the anonymity of today's cities with a small town where everybody knows everybody else's business, and where telephone communication is by party line, and any phone could be tapped very simply. The "loss of liberty" is greatly exaggerated.

    •  We have never before had (0+ / 0-)

      these kind of communications before.

    •  This is not about a general right of privacy. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Futuristic Dreamer, Tomsank

      If anything this is about a general right for the public to know what the government is doing.

      There are already plenty of reasons that government agencies can give to keep communications under wraps. Many of them can be stretched in completely bogus ways. We're talking from state secrets on the Federal level to saying that documents aren't in their final form on the local level.

      The public's right to know trumps any government employee's right to privacy. If any government communication can be kept hidden by simply saying it violates the privacy of a government employee then you might as well kiss open government at a local level goodbye.

      The Great Depression: Now In Color!

      by TheChop on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:20:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is so wrong IMO (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Pd, Futuristic Dreamer

        I've been a government employee and I most certainly DO NOT think EVERYTHING is subject to public scrutiny!!  Do you deserve to know my SSN?  Do you deserve to see my health care records or know how many sick days I've taken just to see if the government could save money on health insurance? Should you get to view my address to see if I live in the jurisdiction of my employer?

        Working for the government should not be an open book into each employee's personal life.

      •  These aren't government communications (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Adam B, CaliSista

        They're private communications.

        Do you really think that government employees abandon ALL rights to privacy in ever aspect of their lives as soon as they work for the government?

        So, I have a right to tap the personal phone of my daughter's school teacher?

        •  I assume when I use a communication device (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Futuristic Dreamer

          that I don't own, that I have no expectation of privacy on that device.  

          I really think your argument is a strawman.

          No one is arguing that government employees abandon all rights.  Only that they don't have an expectation of privacy when using government-owned communication devices.  

          "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

          by bawbie on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 06:10:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The poster at the top of this (0+ / 0-)

            thread WAS arguing in essence that, "government employees abandon all rights"

            The public's right to know trumps any government employee's right to privacy.

            •  No that's not what I was arguing. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              CaliSista

              The public doesn't have a right to know medical histories, personnel files, etc. There are restrictions on the public's right to know. I am saying that you can't trump those rights by claiming privacy. There is already room in public policy for employee privacy. These texts are a matter of public record. There was an avenue for the employee to maintain private communication with his wife and mistress. He choice to ignore those avenues. An employee can't just do whatever on the public dime and then claim a privacy exception.

              The issue works from what the public has a right to know forward not an employee's right to privacy backwards.

              The Great Depression: Now In Color!

              by TheChop on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 07:05:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  As one of those employees in question, (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Futuristic Dreamer

                I have a bit of a problem with

                The issue works from what the public has a right to know forward not an employee's right to privacy backwards.

                but I can understand some argument to the contrary :)

                Are we disagreeing on the definition of "public"? I agree that the CITY has a right to see the texts but not that the PUBLIC necessarily has a right to see them. This was a case about inappropriate use of an employer's property. Why should the content of this guy's texts be available to you or me or a generic Ontario resident?

                •  Also an employee in question (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  CaliSista

                  Well a former employee and for full disclosure I was the Public Information Officer and took it as my job to more or less represent the right of the public to know. So yes I'm a little biased as my office used to have a large NASA photo of the sun up in it. (Sunshine Laws get it.)

                  My city had a very very closed city council. They didn't want anything out that didn't absolutely have to go out. That is until they pretty much all got kicked out of office... for being so secretive.

                  The situation is that the city shouldn't be supplying the guy with a personal pager. There really shouldn't be a lot of areas where personal communication conflicts with public communication as a matter of policy. It avoids situations like these. That said the higher up in government you are the more likely you're going to get a FOIA request slapped on your desk. If you're in public works cutting grass and have a phone so your boss can reach you when you're on the side of the highway and you use that as a private phone there's no expectation of privacy but who would really want to go through the expense of filling a FOIA request over it? Is there any real legitimate reason for having those phone records public? Not really and at the same time there's no real legitimate reason for that employee calling everyone he knows from that phone. If the guy was getting a divorce and his wife's lawyer slapped a FOIA request down on the phone records then the FOIA request is not for the public good but at the same time who he called should be a matter of public record.

                  The guy cutting grass is dicey but if you're going to exempt lower level employees (whose salary information is exempt up to a certain amount) then you have to exempt the public/private phone records of your City Manager. The City Manager's phone logs can serve a multitude of purposes to a small town newspaper reporter. Why is the City Manager calling a certain contractor constantly during a closed bid process? Why is the City Manager calling city hall constantly when he should be in his office? Why did the City Manager say he spoke with the police chief about a firing when there's no record of the call?

                  The right of the public to know goes to the very heart of democracy. If government can act in secret and keep voters in the dark about the true workings of it then it can get away with all sorts of corruption. Knowing that phone records, salaries, e-mails, etc. are all subject to a peak and a check by a newspaper reporter or private citizen is a check and a balance on the power that city employees have over the citizens that employee them. On the whole my right as an employee is trumped by the rights of the 4,000 citizens that I serve to have a functioning democracy.

                  The Great Depression: Now In Color!

                  by TheChop on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 10:00:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Agree with a lot of your (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Futuristic Dreamer
                    views but maybe just differ a bit on which side to push the scale.

                    I definitely see a difference between elected officials vs. run of the mill employees.  I don't think the same level of scrutiny is needed or should be allowed for regular employees.  High level positions/offices like your City Manager example, which in many cases are not Civil Service protected, should be subject to more stringent reporting requirements.

                    How much is too much? Should every document generated by a Secretary, Engineer, Administrator, etc. be published on a government agency's website? Attach keystroke capturing software which uploads directly to the local news agency? Install live webcams in every office?

                    I see excessive phone usage from your garden variety employee as a disciplinary issue.  IMO, personnel issues should not be subject to FOIA requests. Data in the aggregate or stripped of personally identifiable information should be enough for most purposes.  If the media is writing a story on excessive text usage, does it add much to the story to know that

                    Public Information Officer, THECHOP, who appears to have a rocket fetish, sent 500 texts a day :)

                    versus

                    an official in the Public Information Office sent 500 texts per day?

                    Also, I'm not sure what this

                    The guy cutting grass is dicey but if you're going to exempt lower level employees (whose salary information is exempt up to a certain amount)
                    is supposed to mean.

                    Are you saying that the salaries of lower level employees are not public information? I wish this were true.  Some newspapers have taken it upon themselves to publish the names and salaries of EVERY EMPLOYEE online.  A few have had the decency to omit police officers, but have screwed over the remaining employees whose only sin is being a civil servant.

                    •  At least in South Carolina (0+ / 0-)

                      There was a certain amount that if the employee was under was exempt from public disclosure. I believe it was $42,000 or something along those lines. Now obviously it's not hard to figure out if you have the department's budget and know how many people are covered under the salary line item or you request or look up the job postings for those ads.

                      Me and the Economic Development Director would have conversations about it. We didn't mind telling anyone what we made or what we were doing. I always found that busy body newspaper reporters or curious paranoid citizens would always assume the worst if you hid things. "I make $58,000 with a take home vehicle that I don't pay the gas for." Removes a lot of bullshit conspiracy theories.

                      As a public employee you work for the people. The people have a right to know. I had great health insurance, great benefits, and a great salary. I knew the tradeoffs and I knew that if I didn't want to put up with the bullshit that I could go find a job paying 2/3rds of what I was making somewhere else.

                      Incidentally the bullshit did get to be too much.

                      The Great Depression: Now In Color!

                      by TheChop on Tue Apr 20, 2010 at 02:27:13 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  It also depends on the size of the government (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      CaliSista

                      Our city employed about 60 people including firefighters and police officers. The percentage of employees who had a substantial effect on policy was high. Even employees who were insulated from city council by two or three layers of management dealt with them and would be asked (sometimes very uncomfortably) to give advice or opinions on issues. Some of those issues involved very large amounts of money.

                      In our city the number of employees who were not public safety officials or helping to make policy was very very small. If the city was larger and employed 500 people then I can see someone taking a different stance entirely.

                      The Great Depression: Now In Color!

                      by TheChop on Tue Apr 20, 2010 at 02:42:08 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Ahhhh, Now I understand (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        TheChop

                        your viewpoints a bit better. Sixty employees INCLUDING police and fire? A smaller scale operation like that would definitely magnify each employee's effect. The City in question (Ontario, CA) has about 1100 full-time employees which still seems kinda small to me. Alternatively, my comments were based on governmental entities with more than thirty to forty THOUSAND employees!!

                        •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          CaliSista

                          People are looking at this from the view point of huge government but there's a lot of city's and county's with this number of employees. If you're so large that you have 10,000 people employed then you've got people like the cashier at the DMV who shouldn't even need a state e-mail address much less a state Blackberry.

                          Legally that employee's work is subject to FOIA. Practically that employee has no communication to FOIA.

                          The Great Depression: Now In Color!

                          by TheChop on Tue Apr 20, 2010 at 05:24:11 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Both scenarios have a simple answer (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    CaliSista

                    Use a private phone.  If the city manager uses a private phone, that record is private, whether it's city business or not.  If he uses a city issued phone it's public.  Public employees (like the guy cutting grass) are different than elected officials, or political appointees, and they have every reason to be treated differently by the law.

                    "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

                    by Futuristic Dreamer on Tue Apr 20, 2010 at 01:36:46 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  City Managers are public employees (0+ / 0-)

                      There is no difference between a City Manager, an Assistant City Manager, a Public Information Officer and a Public Works Technician Level 1.

                      They're all public employees being paid for by public monies. And yes the very simple solution is for the public employees to use private phones if they don't want their phone calls to their mistress on the public record.

                      I believe there are legal issues involved if say everyone at City Hall decided to use yahoo.com addresses for city business. Hell there are laws (at least in SC) that say a certain number of council members can't all be in the same room talking to each other without public notice so that council can't just happen to all meet at Shoney's and discuss a vote off the record.

                      The Great Depression: Now In Color!

                      by TheChop on Tue Apr 20, 2010 at 02:20:23 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

  •  My expectation: SCOTUS is a bit divided on (0+ / 0-)

    whether there was a reasonable expectation of privacy (mostly due to the fact that there was this weird meld -- read what happens in real world -- of a person's work life and outside life converging through the use of his work pager; and also because of the conflicting statements on what to expect of privacy in those messages).  However, it appears that most justices agree that the search, and the manner it was carried out, were reasonable.  So SCOTUS will probably go with an opinion based on the point where most of the justices agree, and leave the expectation of privacy issue unaddressed (basically saying, assuming the officer had some level of privacy in the messages, what the city did was okay).
  •  Interesting (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, Saru, BachFan, Tomsank, Susan G in MN

    I'm not sure about the Constitutional issues. It'll be interesting to see what the court actually rules. But no one in the modern era should be dumb enough to do anything with work equipment that they want to keep private from management, regardless of what the policy is. It's just a dumb idea.

  •  what? (6+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, Agathena, Saru, BachFan, pvlb, DarkWater

    You are issued a publicly funded, text only, communication tool for work. It is paid for by work. It belongs to work. Your communication on it belongs to work. The fact that you have it is incidental. Its not yours, and neither is anything on it. Its pretty simple.

    You don't have a "right to privacy" on using any tool issued to you by work. Doesn't matter if its a hammer, a car, a pager, or a computer. This guy needs to learn how to separate his work life and his private life.

    •  Is it paid for? I wasn't sure because of this (0+ / 0-)

      from above:

      After all, the officers were the ones that were paying for the

      "[K]now that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy." -Barack Obama

      by Battle4Seattle on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:21:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've done cell phone contracts (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BachFan

        for the Army.  Every month, the supervisors had to review the bills for their employees and sign off that all calls were for official business.  Otherwise it's misuse of Government resources.  

        The way to combat noxious ideas is with other ideas. The way to combat falsehoods is with truth. - William O. Douglas

        by PSzymeczek on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 06:15:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The City paid for 25K in characters, and the (0+ / 0-)

        audit was done to see if that number was too low, since at least two officers went over it more than once. The unofficial Looie position was that he would not audit, once the policy was clearly changed so there was no doubt it covered pagers in its no expectation of privacy position, if the officers paid the overage. Then the same officer went to a staff meeting and complained about having to collect the overage, and the audit resulted. A Jury found the purpose of the audit was on inception legit. The Ninth Circuit reversed the jury decision.

  •  Quan: too lazy/cheap/stupid to own 2nd phone? n/t (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Agathena, Saru, BachFan, Tomsank

    "...calling for a 5" deck gun is not parody. Not by a long shot." (gnaborretni)

    by annieli on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:02:27 PM PDT

  •  This one will be fun to read in June. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BachFan

    I'm guessing Thomas might shock a few people on this one as well. These are the "fun" ones.  

    "I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."-Jessica Rabbbit

    by Common Cents on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:03:59 PM PDT

  •  If you're stupid enough (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Saru, BachFan, Futuristic Dreamer, Tomsank

    to use employer resources for anything other than the most minimal, personal communications, then, you are just stupid.

    •  It's also stupid... (0+ / 0-)

      To insult a police officer. But that doesn't mean that you abandon your right to due process and to not be subject to police brutality the moment you insult a police officer.

      It's also stupid to praise the Klan. Doesn't mean you abandon your first amendment rights when you use them in a stupid manner.

      Sometimes stupid behavior is constitutionally protected.

  •  I'm with Breyer and Stevens on this one. (6+ / 0-)

    I don't think there is a reasonable expectation of privacy for these messages.  I have to assume that anything I send on a police-issued communications device is subject review under any of 1,000 scenarios.  Suppose this SWAT team accidentally kill some teenager who was misidentified by a team member.  Of course all the text messages sent on that system would be read by the investigators.  So too for allegations of police brutality or even just the prosecution of the criminals being arrested-those defense lawyers are going to have a right to see if the arrest was lawful.  Anyway you cut it, those cops could not have felt they were communicating in a way that was never going to be read by a 3rd party.

    "They don't think it be like it is, but it do. " Oscar Gamble, circa 1980

    by Spider Stumbled on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:07:58 PM PDT

    •  Your examples might be covered on an "emergency (0+ / 0-)

      or exigent circumstances" basis. Otherwise, I think if he's paying for the service, it's his property, and they should be required to get a warrant.

      "[K]now that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy." -Barack Obama

      by Battle4Seattle on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:14:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It wasn't his property and he wasn't paying for (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Tomsank

        the service.

        •  I'm basing this on this quote cut off by Breyer: (0+ / 0-)

          After all, the officers were the ones that were paying for the

          I'm assuming the lawyer was going to say they're paying for the service, if I'm wrong, well, then my analysis might be flawed.

          Can you show me the evidence they don't pay for their pagers?

          "[K]now that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy." -Barack Obama

          by Battle4Seattle on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:20:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, they were definitely paying for the service (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Pd

            because they allegedly needed to review the texts to determine how much to charge him for the personal use.  I'm not sure where Breyer is getting that.

            •  I think that it is a general understanding that (0+ / 0-)

              the officers will all use the device for personal use, to some extent, and that they have agreed to pay the overage - or at least the texts that are not for business purposes. Abuse of this priveledge would be taken into notice; even if they were not government employees with high risk/high profile positions.

            •  Well, if the city was paying for it, that narrows (0+ / 0-)

              the question. Then this case really comes down to his reliance on the statement of a superior that his messages wouldn't be monitored.

              Whatever is decided, I hope the ruling is very narrow. The most important part of this diary for me:

              while the ACLU, EFF, CDT and Public Citizen argued that whatever's decided here should be limited to the context of government-as-employer, and that the Court should be hesitant about making a lot of new law with all these new technologies (while, ultimately, supporting Officer Quon).

               

              "[K]now that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy." -Barack Obama

              by Battle4Seattle on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:51:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Briefs say that the purpose of the audit was to (0+ / 0-)

              determine whether the number of characters the City was paying for, 25K a month, was too low to cover the official business, not how much of it was personal and if there was personal abuse. The audit issue was whether it was needful to raise the number of characters the City paid for.

      •  He's paying for the overage, not the core 25K, (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Futuristic Dreamer

        and if he uses up the 25K talking to his gf, and doing only official business on the overage? How are the ones paying for the 25K supposed to discover all those chats with the fellow officer were, ahem, private, without reading them. There is I think no question that if the calls were on official business, the City can read all of them.  And, then there's the wonderful "Were you doing this while on duty?"

    •  But... (0+ / 0-)

      If you were explicitly told that you did not "have to assume that anything I send on a police-issued communications device is subject review under any of 1,000 scenarios" because you were explicitly told that it would not be and, even more significantly, that it was okay to use it for personal use and that they had ways of charging you for that use that were not intrusive then your expectations might be a little bit different. . .

  •  Two things: 1) Is he required to carry the pager? (2+ / 0-)

    and 2) I believe he has to pay for the service (wireless provider), correct?

    To me, if they're going to declare everything said/texted on the pager is part of the "public record," they should pay the bills to the service provider.

    If he's paying for it himself, it seems to me, it's his property, the 4th Amendment applies, and they should have to get a warrant to listen to/read his communications.

    "[K]now that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy." -Barack Obama

    by Battle4Seattle on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:12:57 PM PDT

  •  Since everyone more or less seems to agree (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Adam B, OLinda, Pd

    that the officer doesn't have a reasonable expectation of privacy in his messages, I guess I'll throw this out there: is everyone okay with that?

    Everyone seems to be starting from "well everyone knows that your employer can look at whatever you're doing on your work computer or work phone." I guess I want to ask the more fundamental question-as a normative matter, do people think your employer should be allowed to see whatever it is you're doing on your work equipment?

    I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

    by AnnArborBlue on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:14:14 PM PDT

    •  It is, indeed, the Katz problem (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pd, BachFan

      All sorts of incursions into personal privacy seem "reasonable" as long as they're regular enough.

    •  At the very least it is a troublesome issue. (0+ / 0-)

      Presumably the work equipment is bought and maintained by the employer which provides them some rights to knowledge pertaining its use. How far does that go? There is absolutely no normative answer to that, IMO. There are just contextual answers and it will always be  in flux.

      One great way to lay this out is force guidelines by employers such that there is no ambiguity about privacy or lack thereof with equipment.

      "I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."-Jessica Rabbbit

      by Common Cents on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:19:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  When the telephone had a wire, many companies had (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BachFan, Futuristic Dreamer

        a very flat rule against using the office phones for personal business, especially when they paid by the minute for calls on business lines. For many years when I worked for firms, we'd get our extension bill every month and have to identify every last call and the exact business matter for every last call, or specify which were not and why they were done at work. It was an incident by incident after the fact waiver issue if the school called and said "Your kid is sick, come and pick him up," not a blanket exception to the rule.

    •  False question (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Alice in Florida, Tomsank

      This is not a simple employee/employer relationship. This is a government/government employee relationship.

      There is a public's need to know here. The public is the employer. If you're employed by a government entity it should be a little like going into the military. You have a reasonable expectation that your salary, your e-mails, etc. are all part of the public record. They have to be. If they aren't then the public cannot effectively govern itself. If an officer of the law is taking a government salary and fucking around with his coworkers and sending naughty text messages using public resources then the public has a right to know.

      The Great Depression: Now In Color!

      by TheChop on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:28:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why is there a public need to know (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Pd, Battle4Seattle

        whether a cop is screwing around on his wife? If the need is really that great, if it's something of such great importance-get a subpoena.

        I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

        by AnnArborBlue on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:31:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If it's done on government time (0+ / 0-)

          then the public has a right to know what it's officers and employers are up to. There are rules set up for personnel files and

          http://www.corporateservices.noaa.go...

          obviously mentions expectation of privacy. So no I shouldn't be able to request information of Officer Quon's leave time for his vasectomy but requesting the texts from a pager of Officer Quon's because I see the city getting billed a couple hundred bucks a month extra in overages from city issued pagers to its employees should be pretty cut and dry. If I'm willing to pay the cost of collecting the information I should be able to obtain it.

          The Great Depression: Now In Color!

          by TheChop on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:51:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  He should have gotten himself a personal phone (0+ / 0-)

          Then it would be none of anyone's business.  He didn't, he used his work phone, on the tax payers dime.

          "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

          by Futuristic Dreamer on Tue Apr 20, 2010 at 01:28:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Seriously? (3+ / 0-)

        You think that the personal e-mails of all government employees are fair game? That you have a right to access and view the personal e-mails that a DMV employee sends her daughter? Or the personal e-mails that a school teacher sends his lover?

    •  Happy about it, no; does the employer have a (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TheChop

      right? Probably. If my employer is the government. Absolutely, as there is an accountability to the public/taxpayer. If I am a government employee in a position of authority and dealing with situations where, by my very office, there is a potential for corruption and/or abuse of power on my part? Unquestionably.

    •  Duty (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Alice in Florida

      I think in many cases, the employer would actually have a duty to review what texts, emails, calls, etc, its employee is doing using company property.  I mentioned below, in the securities industry, employers are often required to monitor all "correspondence" between employees and customers to make sure their stock brokers aren't making outrageous promises, for instance.

    •  Yes, and I've never really thought twice about it (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Alice in Florida, BachFan

      If I borrow your phone to send a text, should I have an expectation of privacy?

      If I don't own it, I don't expect my usage to be private.  

      "They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08

      by bawbie on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 06:13:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why should employer's subsidize (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      BachFan

      their employee's social lives? What's wrong with expecting employees to use their own cell phone for private matters? Have you ever heard the saying "he who pays the piper, calls the tune"?

      It sounds like you are looking at this in an abstract, idealistic way rather than considering what really goes on among actual people, the disruptions caused by people doing "private" things...the fact that the employer can be liable for the employees' private misuse of phones or computer networks.

      If we were in the age of landlines being the only means of communication, or if cell phone service was incredibly expensive, I'd be more sympathetic to the idea of people needing privacy on the phone. But in an age of cheap cell phones there's really no excuse for not using a personal phone for private matters. I'd be more concerned about the Patriot Act and FISA and the myriad real invasions of privacy that are allowed these days in situations where people have a reasonable expectation of privacy...cops can basically tear your car apart and even get away with ransacking your home, sometimes without a warrant, if they think someone might have drugs....the Fourth Amendment hardly exists any more except in theory.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 07:53:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hey! Why are you withholding... (6+ / 0-)

    The most telling questions from the bench?

    JUSTICE THOMAS:

    That "hopey-changey thing"? Takes a Magic Hawaiian to pull it off...

    by BobTrips on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:33:13 PM PDT

  •  I'm with Breyer and Stevens (4+ / 0-)

    Publicly-owned device for public purposes, operated at public expense. Zero expectation of privacy with respect to the case as described.

    Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

    by TheCrank on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 05:35:34 PM PDT

  •  I don't see a problem (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BachFan, Tomsank

    As many above, I don't see a problem with an employer looking through texts that were sent/rec'd on an employer provided device.  I don't see any difference between this and an employer reviewing emails from/to your work email address.  Even if you receive those emails on your home computer, delivered to your iphone, whatever, you are utilizing your employers email address and they have a right to monitor it.  It might get tricky if the employer doesn't have an independent way to review those messages.  In other words, I'd have a problem with an employer taking my personal iphone to look at my email, but if they can review them through the server, that's fine.

    I worked in the securities industry and all of the emails that went through our work email address were REQUIRED to be recorded and archived offsite for some time (I think at least three years.)  If my spouse sent me a smoking email, it's burned on a DVD somewhere.  Thankfully, he never did.  My employer was required to keep these records to meet federal and state rules, and to make sure employees weren't making crazy claims to investors.  I'd imagine a police department would also want to keep records like this for CYA purposes, too.

  •  I'm a supervisor, and I'm used to... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BachFan, Futuristic Dreamer

    employees misunderstanding verbal communications, no matter how clear I was.  It's like a big game of Telephone, and people hear what they want to hear.  I have learned over the years to send all instructions, policies, etc. in memo form, usually e-mail.  They still get misunderstood, but at least I can point to the text.

    If a supervisor of Quon's verbally told him, point blank, that the department would never look at his texts, despite there being an official policy, well then.  Supervisors are not always right or entirely knowledgeable and I find it's always best to go with written company policy as opposed to what individual supervisors might verbally say, but that gives Quon reasonable cover.  He's still an idiot, but he has reasonable cover.

    However, I would like to see the exact wording used by whoever told him this.  If it is indeed along the lines Quon indicated, and not a misunderstanding, then that supervisor should be disciplined.  And Quon should have been informed in advance of any search that he had incorrectly been told something that was not in line with official policy, that for this particular month's overage he would be allowed to count the personal texts himself and the number he submitted would be accepted without outside corroboration, on the honor system.  And that going forward the official policy would be in effect.

    But I do think Quon's an idiot, even if he correctly understood his supervisor.  We are drilled repeatedly in my company not to send anything electronically that we wouldn't want to see on the front page of tomorrow's newspaper.  You just never know.  Even if your employer takes a hands-off approach to monitoring your communications, there's always the chance of a lawsuit in which case all that stuff can suddenly get dredged up by outside lawyers who just got access to the company's electronic archives.

  •  I'm not sure who should win this case. (0+ / 0-)

    I want to say that there shouldn't be any expectation of privacy for government employees when using government owned/operated technology. But I'm not sure why. And looking back, 15 years ago before cellphones and email and this and that, you could only avoid this lack of privacy by not doing any personal business with your employer's landline.

    Also, when working for the government, I would think that work-relevant phone calls and emails would be public records. How do you access that public record if it is embedded and interstrewn with protected private personal communications?

  •  I just spent an hour today doing my (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BachFan

    state ethics compliance crap. I call it crap because I had to sit through a 45 minute powerpoint with voiceover. I would have much rather read the information (I read faster than most people can talk).

    The ethics training covered this and was pretty clear about the fact that one could not use one's work computers, phones, etc., for personal use AT ALL. Granted most of us do it, to some extent or another. There are several things that strike me as odd about this entire case, the least of which is the fact that Quon was dumb enough to carry on extensive texting with his colleague-girlfriend. There is a state policy in place about use of state technology equipment which states that communications technology provided by the state should be used for work purposes only. The supervisor said, "Well, yes, there is a policy, but it's almost never enforced." This comment, in turn, gave permission (sort of) to use said pager for personal reasons. The employee went over the allotted number of texts, and was red-flagged. A review process ensued. Period.

    At this point I get a little confused. Is the issue here that he got caught having an affair with a colleague (which violates so many employer policies in both the public and private sector, I don't know where to begin) because of the review of the texts? Is that where the privacy issue comes into play?

    The issue of privacy is a sticky one because the idea of a "reasonable right to privacy" may not be constant. In other words, what I choose to do in my home  and my assured privacy there is very different from the extent of privacy as a state employee. My work computer was supplied to me by the state, as is my work phone (it's a landline). I fully understand that the university archives my email, and can request access to my computer to review it. However, if IT asks for my computer in order to run software updates, and then goes snooping around my files and uncovers something in violation to the ethics policy, I think that's a completely different issue because they did it without informing me in advance. I'd be interested in knowing more about the chain of events, who said what, and in what order.

    Change. Such a small word Full of grace, it comes alive As one embraces hope. The Radical Imagination: Dreaming of the future as it might yet be.

    by Edubabbler on Mon Apr 19, 2010 at 07:15:44 PM PDT

  •  All of This and More (0+ / 0-)

    This sounds like an interesting case. I guess I have some other questions, which might have been answered outside this (or even just in the filings).

    (1) Couldn't they have just asked the officers in question to pay for all of the extra messages? Why did they have to look at them at all? If they get an allowance of, say, 30,000 characters per month and they've used 40K, then couldn't they just be asked to pay for the 10K over?

    (2) If these conversations had happened in the lobby instead of on the Blackberry, would they have had a right to privacy? In other words, if the wife and the girl friend (presumably at separate times) had come into the lobby to talk with the officer, could the receptionist listen in and disclose what they said to others? What happens if you take the technology out of it?

    On the one hand, I hope they find that this is covered by their right to privacy because I think that all private conversations should be held private even if they come using the equipment of an employer. And I don't think that the employee should be able to waive that right to privacy. OTOH, I think this officer was crazy to use his employer equipment for private communications when he could have (it seems) just used a cell phone with a private account and avoided the potential embarrassment.

  •  Criminal discovery (0+ / 0-)

    The guy should have known that his texts weren't private, regardless of what his supervisor said. Since many of these texts were law-enforcement related, it is entirely possibly that they could contain discoverable information in a criminal case. Heck, they could even contain Brady material, such as a text showing that the SWAT team planted a gun on some guy. Who knows? And what if the officers communicated with a confindential informant by text. Again, discoverable in some circumstances.

    So even beyond FOIA, these texts have a good potential to be discoverable. It is even more possible that a government lawyer would need to review them to determine whether they're discoverable.

    The nature of his job makes this case an easy one.

Permalink | 185 comments